Allen Berger & Thom Rutledge
Emotional Sobriety: The Next Step in Recovery
Bill Wilson, co-founder of Alcoholic's Anonymous, wrote in 1952, "If we examine every disturbance we have, great or small, we will find at the root some unhealthy dependence and its consequent demand." Wilson suggested that if we could identify and continually surrender these unrealistic and unrecognizable demands, that we may then be able to accomplish what he imagined to be recovery's next frontier - something he called emotional sobriety. Flash forward 70 years, and join psychotherapists and best-selling authors Thom Rutledge and Dr. Allen Berger, who have taken up the mantle of exploring B...
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Episodios
The Effect of Emotional Sobriety on Our Communication 09.11.2026 31:27
Thom’s Nutshell: Sit, breathe, focus on personal imperfections. Characteristic defects are simply characteristics. Make a list of so-called defects. Express gratitude for each of them. Why not? You can’t outrun them. Changing our dance steps changes the dance. If we shift in our approach to communication with others, the relationship necessarily has to change. In emotional sobriety, our communicat...
The Effect of Emotional Dependency on Our Communication 01.11.2026 21:46
Thom’s Nutshell: Perfectionism and Procrastination are old friends – they go way back. What is emotional dependency? What does that look like, and how can it corrode our relationship with others? Allen goes back to Bill W’s letter on Emotional Sobriety for answers, defining it as real maturity, balance and humility in relationship to life itself. In the transition from environmental support to sel...
The Unicycle Committee with Richard Rohr 16.10.2026 32:00
Thom’s Nutshell: Emotional Sobriety is like riding a unicycle. Allen shares some special interactions he had with Father Richard Rohr, and Thom returns to the show to talk Emotional Sobriety with Patrick. Richard Rohr’s latest writing, about The Odyssey: https://cac.org/daily-meditations/the-odyssey-a-story-of-homegoing/ Our music is provided by the great southern artist Jefferson Ross. Learn more...
Don’t Let Anyone Edit Your Reality 08.10.2026 23:27
Thom’s Nutshell: Be realistic about rejection. Don’t take things personally! Staying in equanimity, being less reactive are some primary goals of emotional sobriety. We aren’t sick, we’re stuck. Allen uses the example of a loved one failing to show up for him at a critical moment to demonstrate how dependency works. We keep authorship of our experience in our own hands by differentiating. Can we k...
Responsibility Over Blame 29.09.2026 33:26
Thom’s Nutshell: Serious condition: I’ll be okay as soon as that thing that happened to me didn’t happen to me. There’s a difference between blame and responsibility. Blame comes from “low differentiation,” or a low level of emotional maturity. It’s a sign of where we’re stuck in our development-fused with our environments. Taking responsibility, conversely, empowers us. It gives us more possibili...
“Waking Up Is a Process” with Daniel Fulop-Furlano 10.09.2026 36:26
Thom’s Nutshell: "Self-denial results in dependence. Self-acceptance creates independence." Waking up is a process, not an event. A road back to our true lost selves. Daniel Fulop-Furlano joins Allen to talk about his journey towards emotional sobriety, which began with the “Divided Sky” rehab retreat in Ludlow, Vermont. Dan’s book, “Sincerely, Delusional,” is a testament to both the sincerity of...
Learning to Live and Love Differently 03.09.2026 49:15
Thom’s Nutshell: "Are you solving the problems you want to solve, or the problems you think you are supposed to solve?" With emotional sobriety comes a commitment to being honest and authentic with each other and especially ourselves in order to live “congruently.” In line with our values, not oppositional to our natures. This necessitates becoming aware of the unreasonable expectations and unenfo...
Living in the Pause 18.08.2026 24:35
Thom’s Nutshell: Challenge your low self esteem and surprise yourself (I did). Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT), which was developed in the 60’s by Aaron Beck, dovetails nicely with some of Bill W.’s ideas. Rooted in observing, not denying, but recognizing “I’m becoming defensive “, “I’m taking this personally,” etc. Thom, Patrick, and Joe C. talk cognition before reaction and living in the paus...
Responsibility “To” Others, Not “For” Them 03.08.2026 25:21
Thom’s Nutshell: Don’t make the mistake of thinking you have no impact in this world of ours. You do. Whether from a pebble or a giant rock, we’re all leaving ripples in the pond. Allen, Thom, and Patrick discuss the illusion of separateness permeating our human bonds. Emotional sobriety can resolve the crises caused by looking towards other people to validate our existence when we don’t think we...
Can We Be Actively Indifferent? 28.07.2026 36:34
Thom’s Nutshell: The ability to speak several languages is an asset, but the ability to keep your mouth shut in any language is priceless. Seeking truth through withholding judgment. What makes it difficult to keep our mouths shut. The Odyssey, grades in school, “won’t” drink versus “can’t” drink. What is the suffering that breaks us open and makes us susceptible to change? Our music is provided b...
Demands Versus Preferences 21.07.2026 27:44
Thom’s Nutshell: If you measure your well being according to how others treat you, you are choosing a life over which you have no control. This is voluntary victimization. Allen brings in his study of a “reflective sense of self” as we discuss the ways our difficulties with emotional sobriety impact those we love. Thom and Joe re-explore stoicism through the lens of emotional dependency. Our fear...
Positive Opportunism & Benevolent Manipulation 06.07.2026 37:11
Thom’s Nutshell: Look for the benefit in all situations - practice positive opportunism. In another passage from Joe C.’s Beyond Belief, Allen ties our daily reflection to Emotional Sobriety and the importance of dislodging our false self in pursuit of an emboldened authentic one. Our music is provided by the great southern artist Jefferson Ross. Learn more about Jefferson at jeffersonross.com Vis...
Out of the Hurt Locker 29.06.2026 33:34
Thom’s Nutshell: We all have opinions. We all prefer certain outcomes. But attaching expectations to them is a choice. Disappointed? Upset? Devastated? Check your expectations. Why do we avoid going towards our pain? Because we don’t have faith in our ability to cope with it. In emotional sobriety we work on our self-esteem, which is part of that perpetual engine moving us towards wholeness. From...
Let It Be (With Joe C.) 23.06.2026 24:52
Thom’s Nutshell: Rather than praying for circumstances to change, pray for the strength and wisdom to face those circumstances. “This shouldn’t be happening!” Well, it IS happening. So how do we deal with it? Riffing on Rumi, Paul McCartney, and Kathryn Grody with superfriend Joe Chisholm. Learn more about Joe C., Secular AA and Rebellion Dogs here: https://rebelliondogspublishing.com Our music...
The Five Points of Balance, Part Two 16.06.2026 31:58
Thom’s Nutshell: Ignoring our own dark potential only makes it stronger. Avoid washing dishes and there are not only more of them, they are also harder to clean. The difference between a reasonable and unreasonable expectation. From Allen: You can want from the best in you, or from the worst in you. You can want from what is healthy and solid, or what is empty and covetous. Wanting from neediness...
The Five Points of Balance, Part One 05.06.2026 30:07
Thom’s Nutshell: “The promise of perfection is a red herring. Don't be distracted from your pursuit of learning and improving.” Patrick celebrates eight years of sobriety and the gang discusses the importance of honoring recovery milestones. The 5 Points of Balance: Staying clear about our values and worth in the face of criticism (not letting others edit your sense of self). Calming our anxiety a...
It’s Not About Just Waking Up, It’s About Growing Up 24.05.2026 29:35
Thom’s Nutshell: “Recipe for peace of mind: KNOW what you believe. KNOW what is important. KNOW what is within your control. LIVE congruently with what you believe.” Thom and Patrick discuss “the upside of addiction” (as a means of climbing out of it), emotional sobriety and relationship struggles, using during therapy, and approaching addiction as a binary choice between life and death. Our music...
Made a Searching & Fearless Moral Inventory (Of Someone Else) 12.05.2026 27:15
Thom’s Nutshell: Step 16: Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of someone else. I can’t say I wasn’t warned. They told me to stop at 12. “Taking others’ inventory” gets to the heart of our functioning. Allen brings this back to Piaget’s studies of pre-operational stages of development. Our emotional development influences our consciousness, and the more immaturity we have, the more we loo...
We Are More Capable Than We Realize 05.05.2026 23:36
Thom’s Nutshell: "Live this moment as if you chose it. Might as well. And maybe you did." Give yourself permission to doubt. Give yourself permission to disagree. Give yourself permission to decide. Add more self! Reflecting on the emotional sobriety of Viktor Frankl and Christopher Reeve, and having the courage to credit your own point of view. In emotional sobriety we find the “positive opportun...
“My Brain Would Kill Me if It Didn’t Need the Transportation” 28.04.2026 30:10
Thom’s Nutshell: “So much energy we spend wishing things to be different. There are always better uses of our time.” Anxiety is consistent, persistent and disciplined. It wakes up first and works out every morning. To change we must be at least as disciplined. Joe C. talks about the many ways (often with the help of community) we medicate this condition. Allen digs into our relationship with Self,...
Don't Stop Before You Even Start! 19.04.2026 30:54
Thom’s Nutshell: “When you want something, do you begin with a commitment to make it happen or a list of reasons that it probably won't?" The mighty Carol Carter joins us again from the front of a different kind of recovery: triage from a flood which devastated her home. In our pursuit of emotional sobriety, integrity matters most. In adjusting our expectations to meet the moment, we can also “cha...
Disappointments Are Not Obstacles 05.04.2026 33:56
Thom’s Nutshell: “ Life is a wonderful blessing, with many great disappointments. Can you see disappointment as a gift?” In emotional sobriety, we attempt to believe that we are here to learn from whatever we are given, which Thom calls “positive opportunism.” How can we use what disappoints us to become a better person? How can we use it to be productive? Acting “as if” this was the plan all alon...
Anger is Just Another Feeling 26.03.2026 30:31
Thom’s Nutshell: One of emotional sobriety's greatest challenges is for us to understand and accept our contribution to our own distress without becoming distracted by self-condemnation. Shame and humility are not the same thing. One of the first levels of self-acceptance is an utter refusal to be in an adversarial relationship with ourselves. When we take ownership over our own existence, there’s...
Moving Forward After Relapse, Part Two 16.03.2026 29:47
Thom’s Nutshell: Rigorous honesty begins at home. Joe C. joins us to discuss the ways relapse is experienced by the loved ones of the relapser, and how we can think about these distressing events differently. The universe isn’t guided by structure and order alone. There’s chaos as well. We have influence, but not control, and with emotional sobriety we can more clearly see that distinction. Thank...
Moving Forward After Relapse, Part One 08.03.2026 30:00
Thom’s Nutshell: “You cannot work both sides of the serenity prayer. Choose. Commit.” Emotional sobriety is about moving forward. The key to unlocking long term recovery is learning to support ourselves internally by organizing our experience to deal with the struggle. To move through and out of relapse, we can’t collapse into a pile of “shoulds.” Relapse occurs for addicts when they haven’t accep...
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