The Westminster Tradition

In this second interview with former Commonwealth Secretary and Australian Public Service Commissioner Andrew Podger AO, Danielle gets to chat about The pros and cons of bringing all service delivery together in a single agency  The valuing of operational expertise v policy leadership The role of portfolio budget practices in driving Robodebt Cultures of challenge and diversity of thought The futu...

With a decade as a Commonwealth Secretary, and two more as Australian Public Service Commissioner, it is no surprise Robodebt Royal Commissioner Holmes turned to Andrew Podger AO for expert advice on the operation of the public service . In this episode, Danielle talks to Andrew about the impact that granting tenure could have on the quality of advice, the increasing use of labour hire in the publ...

What does the community want more - every last transgressor to be punished, or government to keep out of their business? How can regulators keep pace with changing community expectations about what is ‘appropriate’ - and, indeed, what is a workplace? What is a regulator to do when you’re facing these issues in the full glare of media scrutiny? In this final episode of the Essendon mini-series, we...

In episode two of this mini-series, we pick up the story of the Essendon supplements scandal from the perspective of the investigators. In this story we hear how ASADA ends up in the middle of a media fire storm, with inadequate regulatory powers and biopharmaceutical technology racing ahead. But is it really a matter for ASADA at all? Is this an anti-doping violation, or a WHS breach? And why do...

“Lack of good governance is why good people did bad things at Essendon Football Club”. So says Lindsay Tanner, former Minister for Finance, and President of the Essendon Football Club from 2015. In this mini-series, Caroline tries to convince us there are lessons for public servants from the Essendon Football Club supplement scandal in 2013. In this episode, we talk about what happened in Essendon...

In the second of two follow ups to her interview at the end of 2023, Sue Vardon dives deep on her commitment to training Centrelink staff, including the establishment of an in-house Registered Training Organisation (RTO). This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be. Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers.... Whi...

In the first of two follow ups to her interview at the end of 2023, Sue Vardon returns to share her thoughts on the dangers for Senior Executives who outsource considerations of legality to the lawyers. This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be. Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers.... While we have tried to...

Centrelink is not alone in having a push and pull between the investment required to get it right up front, versus the convenience of fixing things up later. We discuss the old chestnut 'fast, cheap, good - pick two' , and the less obvious costs of running lean - whether in pandemic preparedness, strategic policy capacity, workforce burnout. Finally, Danielle proposes an end to end defin...

If you knew your IT system was unreliable, wouldn't you keep some manual checks to make sure it doesn't go wrong? Not if you're Post Office, and desperately looking for savings. Especially if you've just lost your biggest revenue source, in the form of the Benefits Agency and the cash in the tills it provides. In the final episode of our first (but not last!) mini-series on the...

Despite hundreds of technical issues and continuing delays in meeting quality requirements, in January 2000, Post Office Board accepted the Horizon IT system as its own. In this episode, we discuss how hard it is to say 'stop' in the middle of a game of whack-a-mole of problem fixing, especially when there are institutional incentives to keep going. We also have strong feelings about the...

Why was the Post Office's Horizon IT system so error ridden in the first place? And is the false conviction of nearly 1000 postmasters really Tony Blair's fault in the end? (Spoiler alert: probably not.) In this episode, Caroline takes us through why Horizon was probably doomed from the start, with Post Office and the Benefits Agency shackled together to buy an ICT system through an elab...

Season 2 kicks off with a deeper look at the British Post Office fiasco. Gaslighting critics, false confessions, aggressive litigation tactics, challenges with redress, and no accountability from senior leaders - sound familiar? Nick Wallis BBC4 podcast The Great Post Office Trial Alison's recommended listening re psychological safety, Adam Grant's Think Again On the 'objective revi...

In this special holiday bonus, inaugural CE of Centrelink Sue Vardon AO joins Danielle and Caroline to talk through her submission to the Robodebt Royal Commission . Her submission outlines the changes in Centrelink that made Robodebt possible - as well as the things that have stayed the same. She also takes us through her career, from being the only social worker in Wagga Wagga through to leading...

Much of the evidence heard by the Royal Commission was from people who didn't know what was happening - either because they were too junior to have all the information, or, if they were senior, too busy to have stopped and asked the question. Provoked by Dr Darren O'Donovan, in this episode we unpack practical steps that create organisations that can't look away. The discussion cove...

In this in-depth and wide-ranging interview,  Dr Darren O'Donovan , Senior Lecturer at La Trobe University Law School, reflects on what it was like being on the outside looking in at Robodebt. *This  was recorded before the release of the Government's response to the Royal Commission .* Some references from the interview include: Frank Kafka Before the Law Pamela Herd and Donald Moynihan...

In this episode, Danielle and Alison bring the conflict on their views of behavioural insights. Danielle thinks it's a revelation that government started thinking about its customers and what works for them. Alison thinks it's oversold, and not always deployed in the interests of the people. Caroline wonders if we can all just get along. Ultimately, the listeners win. References from the...

Christmas leave plays an outsize role in Robodebt. Danielle takes us through some of the questions raised about Christmas leave, including who holds the can when people are on leave, and how 'hovering' while you're on leave can confuse and disempower. She also makes a case that government should never, ever shut down over Christmas, because our work never ends. Meanwhile, Alison giv...

In September 2014, at the very moment DHS invents Robodebt, the APS receives a frank assessment of its limitations in the form of the Final Report Home Insulation Program Royal Commission. In this episode, a review of the 'pink batts' Royal Commission report shows the key failings that recur. Why is it so hard as a public servant to say 'we can't do this in the time allowed?&ap...

In our final episode on the algorithmic nature of Robodebt, we tackle the implications of  algorithms being commercial in confidence property of third party providers, legacy ICT systems, plus recognise we need to lean in to understanding AI and how it works. We do a second mini-dive into the Great British Post Office scandal - this time into the systemic racism that underpinned its operation. We...

How will automation impact the ability of people to seek review of administrative decisions by government agencies?    In this episode, we talk about the human bias toward thinking computers are right, and take a brief digression into another public service scandal - The Great Post Office Trial - where discrepancies on a computer screen were used as proof to send people to jail. You can find Aliso...

The first of a number of episodes on the algorithmic nature of Robodebt. This episode focuses on big data in government - what we know about it, the ways in which data can be hard to use, and the supreme importance of context. Danielle talks about disappearing from a government system, and Alison gives an important life hack to all double-barrelled surname holders. You can find a link to the Profe...

Why can it be hard to hear whistleblowers in big organisations? Caroline takes us through Kathryn Campbell's response to whistleblowers that come in via the media and come in via the union, and thinks there's something in that.  Alison thinks it's a failure of change management - but is stuck on finding words to describe that aren't "waffle cloud". Danielle finally ge...

In this special episode, Caroline and Danielle unpack their feelings about the Royal Commission Report, five days after its release. We also pick through some of the Commissioner's key findings, as they relate to things discussed in previous episodes. If you are new to the podcast, we suggest you start at the beginning and come to this after you've listened for a bit. You can find Rick M...

In the second episode of two episodes exploring the culture in DHS and how it contributed to Robodebt, Danielle takes us through the pressures being experienced on the frontline in Centrelink. From the rise of employee engagement surveys, the use of temporary labour hire, to the decline of unions, this episode explores the importance (and challenge) of knowing what's going on the frontlines....

In this episode, Caroline takes us through the tick-tock of how, in late January and early February 2015, DSS went from having legal advice that said Robodebt was unlawful, to waving it through the Budget process. We discuss how something that is 'not consistent with legislation' is actually 'illegal', and the impacts of softening language on the bowels of ministers. Alison giv...