Emotional Sobriety: The Next Step in Recovery

Carol Carter returns to the show as we try a more focused format and talk change, not taking things personally, and understanding our capacity to accomplish more and weather bigger storms than we ever thought possible.   Learn more about Joe C., Secular AA and Rebellion Dogs here: https://rebelliondogspublishing.com     Follow us on social media. Podcast Twitter: @EmSobrietyPod Instagram: thomrutl...

Melanie Gulde returns to the podcast to talk with Allen and Thom about the progress and promise of Divided Sky in Vermont, which isn’t a rehab but a residential recovery retreat, reasonably priced. She discusses meeting Phish’s Trey Anastasio, who worked with her in recovery to form the center’s curriculum, which lists “Emotional Sobriety 101” as a foundational text.   More about Divided Sky: http...

“...the pain that comes from loving someone who's in trouble can be profound.” ―  Melody Beattie,  Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself   Joe’s “Beyond Belief” book: https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Belief-reflection-nonbelievers-freethinkers/dp/0988115700   See guest Michael Harney’s play, “Danny Boy” still showing in Los Angeles: https://www.onstage411.c...

Joe, Thom, and Patrick talk Marcus Aurelius, read a daily reflection from Joe’s “Beyond Belief,” and consider the uncomfortable necessity of staying in the center of the herd. We also talk about making a difference and keeping the candle of hope burning during our particularly brutal and unjust time.   Joe’s “Beyond Belief” book: https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Belief-reflection-nonbelievers-freethi...

Actor, writer and director Michael J. Harney (NYPD Blue, Deadwood, True Detective) joins Thom and Allen to talk about his evolving spirituality and journey to recovery, his experience directing his new play “Danny Boy,” his friendship with the legendary David Milch, and how emotional sobriety has shown up for him over the years in his relationships with others and his Muse.   See Michael’s play, “...

Joe C. joins Allen and Patrick to introduce what will be a series of episodes discussing how emotional sobriety can improve our sexual relationships, building genuine intimacy with partners. Finding ways to connect authentically, standing for ourselves without erasing our partners, and showing up for our partners without erasing ourselves.   Learn more about Joe C., Secular AA and Rebellion Dogs h...

Clinical trauma specialist and author of Trauma and the 12 Steps Jamie+ Marich, Ph. D., LPCC-S, REAT joins Allen and Thom this week to talk about her body of work, field of study and pursuit of emotional sobriety. We pay special attention to the trauma surrounding loss, since all trauma work involves grief work. Learn more about Dr. Marich: www.redefinetherapy.com www.instituteforcreativemindfulne...

Thom, Joe, and Patrick read from the Beyond Belief daily reflections about where emotional sobriety can come in when we’re struggling to tolerate opposing beliefs and challenging personalities. Emotional sobriety requires not only respect for ourselves, but respect for others.   Patrick’s “Outside Issues” podcast, about the intersection of recovery and social justice: https://www.youtube.com/@outs...

Joe Chisholm returns to discuss helping others through suggestion, not “expertise.” Emotional sobriety can help us escape a “victim mentality” we must shed to become the best version of ourselves. We use the term “victim” delicately, taking into account genuine sufferers of abuse and victimization. Whether one hour or twenty years sober, we’re all engaging with the same work and the same pursuit o...

Thom and Allen discuss pursuing emotional sobriety once we become aware of our “unconscious incompetence.” In practicing anything until it becomes innate and automatic, the path begins (as so much of what we do), in acceptance. We return to the serenity prayer.   Patrick’s “Outside Issues” podcast, about the intersection of recovery and social justice: https://www.youtube.com/@outsideissuespodcast...

Having recently celebrated 40 years of continuous sobriety, Bill Cleveland, a pillar in a multitude of recovery fellowships (namely Hermosa Beach Men’s Stag) discusses with Allen alcoholism as an analogue for emotional immaturity, AA as something we “get” to do rather than something we “have” to do, “second first steps,” the importance of amends and working with others.   If you’re in recovery or...

Superfriend Carol Carter returns to talk about a recent breakthrough in self-love, a welcome reminder that Emotional Sobriety is above all else a discovery of new possibilities.   Carol is accepting clients for executive and professional coaching, and can be contacted here: carolcartercoaching@gmail.com   Learn more about Joe C., Secular AA and Rebellion Dogs here: https://rebelliondogspublishing....

We respond to criticisms leveled at a recent workshop: is Emotional Sobriety somehow alternative, even interruptive, of a faithful rigorous 12 Step program, or is it a complement to it? As always we try to get to the feeling beneath the compulsion, the “stuckness” that prevents us from reaching that fourth dimension. Allen, Thom, and Joe C. wore out their big books in their early days, but still k...

Carol Carter returns to the show to talk about letting go of her resentments towards her ex-husband. By freeing him, she freed herself. Many of us first veered off course in our largely unconscious emotional dependencies, creating a powerlessness and unmanageability on par with any other addiction. In emotional sobriety we learn to hold onto ourselves, in good times or bad.   Carol is accepting cl...

Joe C. joins Patrick and Thom to chat about mutual aid versus self-help: how collectivism can feed our emotional sobriety. When we give ourselves to fellowship and sharing, we’re gaining something as much as we’re giving it away. The origin of AA itself can be attributed to this concept. Register for what’s sure to be lively: the 2025 International Convention of Alcoholics Anonymous, which begins...

Joe Chisholm checks back in. We read a passage from his daily reflections book and he brings to our attention “Living Sober,” which was written more than 40 years after the AA Big Book was published. When those recovering were asked “what were the reasons you drank?,” they often said they used it to express their anger. Today we search for new mediums to express our emotions.   As Allen likes to r...

This week we talk about taking better lessons from our mistakes. In finding our emotional center of gravity, recognizing we’re sick rather than stuck , we try to trust the process instead of controlling the outcome.   To participate in Thom’s Inner Child Workshop on Saturday, June 21st @ 10am CST, email him here: thomrutledgeauthor@gmail.com     Learn more about Joe C., Secular AA and Rebellion Do...

Allen, Thom, and Patrick discuss the recent political upheaval and encroaching fascism of Trump and ICE. Allen relates the tension between our obligations to society and commitment to ourselves to a quote from Eric Fromme. Emotional sobriety is found in adapting, but not at the expense of becoming.   Then, Patrick talks to artist, organizer, and person in recovery Elizabeth Medrano. A shared impul...

Samantha was a psychologist before she found recovery, and her experience with the 12 Steps is just one touchstone in her evolving relationship to life in pursuit of greater emotional sobriety. This week she chats with Allen and Thom about her recent experience at Recovery Reimagined in Dublin, what we mean by “Recovery Capital”, and her new book.   Samantha’s book Channels of Peace  HERE   To par...

Having returned from the second annual Recovery Reimagined conference in Dublin, Patrick reflects on the passing of a longtime sober friend who took his own life. Allen and Thom offer their own professional and personal experiences with suicide, depression and “anti-self”, which maximizes our life’s problems while minimizing the resources we have to deal with them.   To participate in Thom’s Inner...

Allen, Thom, and Patrick welcome addiction psychiatrist Carl Erik Fisher of Columbia University to discuss emotional sobriety. In the pursuit of “making sense of what happened to him” after his addiction hit a point of critical mass and he decided to seek help, Dr. Fisher wrote The Urge: Our History of Addiction and began regular episodes of the Flourishing After Addiction podcast to look for answ...

When we try to wrestle security from life, we often get pinned. Joe Chisholm offers us this:   Dee Hock (1929-2022) wrote:    “Life is not about control; it is not about getting; it is not about having or knowing. It is not even about being. Life is eternal, perpetual becoming, or it is nothing. Becoming is not a thing to be known, commanded, or controlled. It is a magnificent, mysterious odyssey...

Frequent collaborator and fellow recoverer Julia Heidmann stops by to talk about the role emotional sobriety has played in her relationships with others and herself.   From our friends in Canada:   “Inukshuk, pronounced (in-ook-shook), is a stone monument erected in the image of humans. One of its purposes was to serve as direction markers in the harsh and desolate Arctic. It was a tool of surviva...

Allen, Thom, and Patrick discuss the overwhelm that often occurs as we return to health, and in so doing take on more challenges in our day to day lives. How do we maintain that sense of balance and proportion without steering into paralysis or unhealthy perfectionism?   Learn more about Joe C., Secular AA and Rebellion Dogs here: https://rebelliondogspublishing.com/   Upcoming events with Allen B...

Roger Andes returns after a period of recovery to talk with Thom and Patrick about forming a new relationship with our life’s challenges, including awareness of our own mortality.   Roger holds B.A. and M.A. psychology degrees, and has worked as a personal growth consultant teaching transformative personal growth skills to individuals and groups for over 50 years. He helps his clients learn to let...