The Systemic Way

What does it mean to truly see in therapy? Not just to recognise a problem or follow a model, but to sense the subtle movements of relationship — the flicker of meaning between people, the quiet shifts that change the course of a conversation. In this episode, Dr. Hugh Palmer, systemic family psychotherapist, trainer and writer, invites us into the art of expanded vision. Drawing on Gregory Bateso...

In this episode, we shine a spotlight on the Pears Family School, a pioneering Alternative Provision school in the UK that is redefining how we support children with complex emotional, behavioral, and mental health needs. Facing a national crisis in child mental health and a lack of joined-up services, the Pears Family School bridges the gap between education and mental health through a unique, sy...

In this episode, we are joined by pioneering systemic psychotherapist, organisational consultant, and author Christine Oliver for a rich conversation exploring systemic approaches to organisational life, leadership, and change. Drawing from over 30 years of experience across the NHS, charities, international organisations, faith communities, and private consultancy, Christine reflects on how syste...

In this episode of The Systemic Way, we speak with Rick Murphy and Lisa Dvorjetz about their book A Systemic Approach to Integrative Counselling (2024)  and the growing need to bring relational thinking into everyday therapeutic practice. Together, we explore how familiar counselling models such as person-centred, psychodynamic, CBT, Gestalt, and action-based approaches can be reworked through sys...

Celebrating our 100th episode of The Systemic Way Podcast. We took The Systemic Way to @EFTA-RELATES 2025 Congress in Lyon and stepped into a space shaped by change, tension, and possibility. Across four days, we spoke with therapists, researchers, and practitioners working at the edges of systemic practice. You hear their reflections, their challenges, and the moments that stayed with them. From...

In this episode of The Systemic Way, we sit down with renowned psychotherapist, author, and educator Jan Winhall to explore the transformative power of the Felt Sense Polyvagal Model (FSPM). With over four decades of clinical experience, Jan invites us into a radically compassionate, body‑based understanding of trauma, addiction, and healing. Together, we unpack how the body’s survival responses a...

In this episode, we’re turning our attention to the UK drama Adolescence — a series that begins with a single, shocking event but quickly reveals a much wider web of responsibility. Rather than focusing solely on the actions of one young person, the drama draws us into the interconnected systems surrounding him: family, school, peer culture, mental health services, and the criminal justice system....

In Grandmotherland, Dr Judith Edwards offers an exploration of Grandmotherhood as an intergenerational, relational, and socially constructed position. Drawing on myth, fairy tales, family narratives, and contemporary lived experience, she examines how dominant cultural discourses shape expectations of grandmothers and organise family roles, boundaries, and power across generations. Judith attends...

In this episode of The Systemic Way, we talk about age in the room—listening for it not as decline, but as presence, memory, and becoming. Drawing inspiration from Maya Angelou’s On Aging, where she writes of being “old as the hills, and far from done,” we explore lifecycle transitions, working with older people, and how a therapist’s age is read, misread, and positioned in the therapeutic relatio...

In this episode we speak with no other than Dr. Jaako Seikkula on this latest book Why Dialogue Does Cure: Explaining What Makes Dialogue Unprecedentedly Effective in Difficult Crises (2025). The book presents the core principles of Open Dialogue, a system of psychiatric care and dialogic psychotherapy that has spread to over 40 countries. Why Dialogue Does Cure explores the transformative power o...

In this episode, we reflect on the deeply moving documentary White Nanny, Black Child (2023), which explores Britain’s “farming” system — a practice through which over 70,000 West African children were fostered by white British families between 1955 and 1995. Through the voices of nine adults who reunite to share their experiences, the film opens up tender and painful reflections on identity, belo...

In this very special episode we sit down with members of the DWP - Race Group (Shakira Nkanang, Calvin Malcom and John Burnham) as we turn our systemic lens on the iconic album by Tracy Chapman (Tracy Chapman 1988).  We ask, how does Tracy Chapman's album provide a soundtrack for confronting race, power, and privilege in therapeutic practice?  What do the anthems of our lives reveal about the...

In systemic psychotherapy we often focus on the words we use, but what about the sound of them? In this episode, we meet with systemic psychotherapist and social worker Jordan Makmihe to explore the subtle yet significant role of accent in therapeutic practice. Our conversation considers how the nuances of our speech—the melody, the rhythm, the inflection—carry unspoken stories about identity, bel...

In this thought-provoking episode, we sit down with therapist, trainer, supervisor and author Desa Markovic to explore her compelling paper on the Aspects of Reading  (2021) - a model that invites practitioners, students, and educators into a deeper, more layered relationship with texts. Desa guides us through a nuanced framework that separates and then interweaves four key reading positions: The...

In this inspiring and thought-provoking episode, we sit down with peace activist, former Jain monk, and ecological visionary Satish Kumar to explore the profound power of Radical Love —the focus of his latest book. Together, we dive into how love can be understood not just as a personal feeling, but as a systemic force capable of transforming families, communities, and entire societies. Satish sha...

What if our biggest crises – from climate collapse to mental health – demand not simpler solutions, but a deeper embrace of complexity? Join us for a profound conversation with Nora Bateson , award-winning filmmaker, writer, and systems thinker. Nora takes us inside the rich ecology of ideas explored in her groundbreaking book, Combining.  Nora challenges us to see the world as a web of inseparabl...

In this rich and wide-ranging conversation, we sit down with Umberta Telfener, President of EFTA, and Hans Christian Michaelsen, Vice President, to explore the heart of systemic practice across Europe. Together, they unpack what EFTA (European Family Therapy Association) is, how it’s structured, and what it offers to both long-standing members and curious newcomers. We hear about their personal jo...

In this episode, we speak with Taiwo Afuape and Sumita Dutta, Co-Directors of the Institute of Family Therapy in London, to explore the rich history and bold new direction of one of the UK’s leading centres for systemic practice.  Together, we reflect on IFT’s legacy, its role in shaping generations of family therapists, and how its current leadership is reimagining training and practice through a...

Join us for an inspiring and thought-provoking interview with Dr. Harlene Anderson, a trailblazer in systemic psychotherapy and co-founder of the Collaborative-Dialogical Approach. In this deep dive, we explore her revolutionary ideas—from challenging traditional therapy hierarchies to redefining power, knowledge, and the role of language in healing.   We’ll unpack:   - The origins of her work—Wha...

Join us in this insightful episode as we sit down with Dr. John Launer, a retired GP, family therapist, and pioneer in integrating systemic and narrative approaches into healthcare. Dr. Launer shares his journey from general practice to becoming a leading figure in training healthcare professionals to use therapeutic conversations in their everyday work. Discover the transformative power of Conver...

Join us for an inspiring and personal conversation with John Burnham, a true trailblazer in systemic psychotherapy and a visionary in the field of family therapy. With a career spanning over five decades, John has dedicated his life to transforming the way we understand and approach mental health, particularly in the context of eating disorders and family dynamics. In this insightful podcast episo...

In this episode, we sit down with Nick Putman, founder of Open Dialogue UK and a leading force in adapting the Open Dialogue approach to the UK. As a UKCP registered psychotherapist and certified Open Dialogue practitioner and trainer, Nick shares his journey of learning directly from pioneers like Jaakko Seikkula and Jorma Ahonen, and how he has worked to bring this revolutionary approach to the...

In this episode, we’re joined by attendees from the Hayaa’ Network’s groundbreaking conference on neurodiversity, held in Singapore in February 2024. Together, we reflect on the latest advancements in practice, research, and theory in this rapidly evolving area of mental health, all through a systemic lens. Featuring insights from keynote speakers Dr. Marwa Azab, Ms. Nora Bateson, Ms. Maimunah Mos...

Join us for a compelling exploration of, The Divided Island , a groundbreaking documentary film that delves into the complex history, identity, and shared humanity of Cyprus. In this episode, we sit down with the film’s creators - director Cey Sesiguzel (Turkish Cypriot) and co-producer Andreas Tokkallos (Greek Cypriot) - as they reflect on their journey of collaboration and friendship, the storie...

In this episode, we sit down with David Denborough, a leading figure in narrative therapy and community work, to explore the fascinating journey that brought him to this transformative approach. David shares the early influences that connected his values and beliefs with narrative ideas, offering insight into the foundational stories that shaped his practice. We dive into his relationship with the...