What the REF?!

Episode 23 of What the REF looks back at the recent ARMA Conference and the team’s take on various sessions there on the Research Excellence Framework. Gemma, Ola, and James discuss uncertainty around REF 2029, proposals to broaden what counts as research outputs, and gaps between policy language and what actually happens in institutions. They also dig into some of the bigger critiques of the REF...

Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for m...

In this special episode of What the REF, the team officially launches the 2026 Hidden REF Competition and explores how it has evolved from a one-off initiative into a wider movement for research culture change. New co-host Michael Donnelly joins Lyndsey and Simon to discuss why the competition exists, who it supports, and how it helps spotlight overlooked research roles and outputs. They unpack th...

This episode of What the REF explores some of the biggest tensions shaping REF and the wider research sector. Gemma, Simon and Lyndsey discuss a criticism of the measurement of research culture, arguing that accountability and lived experience matter more than simplistic metrics. They then examine growing enthusiasm for AI in research assessment, questioning whether evaluation can ever be automate...

Inside the REF machine: this episode of What the Ref lifts the lid on life as an institutional lead. Featuring Gemma Fitzsimmons and Julie Northam, we explore the realities of coordinating submissions, navigating ambiguous guidance, and building confidence across entire universities. From data security concerns to the challenge of representing diverse research outputs, the conversation blends prac...

This week on What the Ref, the team heads to Plymouth for a lively workshop on non-traditional outputs before diving into a fascinating interview with Gareth Cole on the future of open access books. From monographs to “long-form” research, they unpack the challenges of defining openness, funding models beyond book processing charges, and the tension between flexibility and REF policy. Is the syste...

Dive into the latest episode of What the REF?, where the team unpacks shifting UK research funding, REF 2029 updates, and what an interim director could mean for the sector. From curiosity-driven research and “hidden roles” to the challenges of assessing non-traditional outputs, this episode explores how academia is evolving in real time. The conversation also tackles bigger cultural questions: jo...

Discover the story behind the Hidden REF Competition in this special episode of What the REF. James and Lindsay explain how the initiative celebrates the vital but often overlooked contributions that keep research running—from software and datasets to infrastructure, engagement, and the people behind the scenes. Learn how the competition works, who is involved, and why the research community’s sub...

Research culture, open access battles, and major REF leadership news — this episode of What the REF?! unpacks the forces reshaping UK academia. The team reflects on the resignation of REF 2029 director Rebecca Fairbairn, debates universities walking away from big publishing deals, and explores how journal prestige still drives pressure and toxic incentives in some disciplines. They also let produc...

This episode of What the Ref mixes REF chat with community energy as James returns, Researchfish’s impending closure sparks lively debate, and the team reflects on what meaningful research culture could look like next. Gemma, James and Lindsay unpack why Researchfish mattered, why few will mourn it, and what might replace it. The spotlight then turns to Hidden REF’s first-ever community call, whic...

A new year of ‘REF-iness’ kicks off as the What the REF team unpack the fallout from December’s REF changes and look ahead to what 2026 holds. With the dust now settling, the conversation turns from reaction to reckoning: what do the new rules actually mean in practice, and who stands to gain or lose? The team highlight two must-read reflections on the reforms, including analysis of the removal of...

This week on What the REF?!, Ola and James start to unpack the long-awaited REF announcement from December, sharing first reactions and a palpable sense of relief across the sector. While a full deep dive is parked until the new year, the episode offers an initial digest of what has landed, why certainty matters, and which debates are already bubbling up around outputs, narratives and research cul...

Simon and Ola are live at the 2025 Research & Innovation Conference, hearing Professor Dame Jessica Corner outline how REF2029 is moving forward - and we’ve got immediate reactions. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTre...

Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for m...

In this lively episode of What the Ref, Gemma, James and Simon guide listeners through the endlessly surprising world of the Research Excellence Framework. Proceedings begin with Simon recounting the final NTO workshop of the year, held at the University of Exeter, which has become the national home of hyper-efficient scrutiny. The team is now preparing an expanded workshop programme for next year...

In this episode of What the REF?!, James, Gemma, and Simon reflect on an extraordinary few days at the Hidden REF Festival and explore what the new Post-16 Education and Skills White Paper could mean for the future of research assessment. The conversation begins with highlights from the Festival, where workshops, think-aloud experiments, and even a debate over Tom Cruise films versus K-pop tracks...

Welcome back to What the REF?!, the only podcast where academics make bureaucracy sound almost fun. Simon, James, and Gemma welcome new team member Dr Ola Thomson, who brings both organisational-behaviour expertise and the calm assurance of someone who’s already read the entire REF guidance. Ola compares the REF to an iceberg: what you see is a harmless evaluation exercise, but beneath lurk strate...

This week on What the Ref, the gang (Gemma, James, and Simon) score a big guest: Lizzie Gadd, one of the UK’s most respected voices in research assessment. If you’ve ever wondered why people keep muttering about “the REF pause” like it’s a cliffhanger in a Netflix series, this episode’s for you. Lizzie dives straight into the thorny issue of research culture—what it is, why it matters, and why sim...

This week, James, Gemma, and Simon dive headfirst into the post-summer politics, but start with Simon’s keynote at the Research Software Engineering Conference. Imagine a room full of coders being told that research software deserves a spot in the REF – cue applause, tough questions, and one very good point: are we rewarding novelty over long-term, community-building work? But that’s just the warm...

In this jam-packed episode of What the Ref?!, we look into the latest updates on the REF, including the portability debate, and the ever-evolving world of not-traditionally submitted outputs—aka NTOs, or as our guest from Liverpool calls them, Dots (Diverse Output Types). We kick off with dramatic outcries, vague role descriptors, and the REF team's valiant attempt to clarify who actually counts i...

It’s out! The CKU guidance is out! And it’s the focus of this episode. We start with an update on our events, mainly focussing on their popularity. Both the Hidden REF Festival and the not-traditionally submitted output workshops that we ran recently at Kings and Liverpool have proven very popular. We then discuss the guidance for the Contributions to Knowledge and Understanding (CKU) which was re...

In this episode, we kick off with a few updates and then hear about the incredible agenda planned for the Festival of Hidden REF (7-8 October in Birmingham). We are hugely excited to welcome our first guest: Marcus Munafò, Deputy Vice-Chancellor and Provost at the University of Bath and Director of the UK Reproducibility Network. He talks about his experience of the REF and its role in incentivisi...

In this episode, we focus on the struggle of what to call the outputs that aren't journal or book publications. We update on an article from Dame Jessica Corner on the People, Culture and Environment statement, what's happening with REF panelists and - for possibly the first time in history - use the words "secretariat" and "interesting" in the same sentence. If you want to learn more about how yo...

Welcome to the first ever episode of What the REF?! Our attempt at demystifying everyone's favourite national research assessment exercise. In this episode, we discuss the REF as an amazing driver of research culture change and our hopes for increasing engagement with the exercise so that we can build a research environment that is more equitable and more effective. We talk about our dream guests...