The Messy City Podcast

During the course of this interview, I jokingly called Butch Rigby the George Bailey of Kansas City. But the more I reflect on this, the more true it rings. Butch talks about how he started with nothing, got his hands dirty for years, and slowly but doggedly created a successful development business. And, how he did it almost exclusively by working with small, local businesses. There’s so much to...

“People travel thousands of miles to go on outdoor adventures, but you can do all that right here on the Mississippi.” The great river through the middle of the country is so many things to so many people. It’s a transportation lifeline, a natural wonder, a deep connection to the human spirit, and the birthplace of countless cities and towns. Dean Klinkenberg, who happens to be my older brother, h...

Howard Blackson is the Howard Roark to my Peter Keating. He’s the oil to my water. Well, alright, maybe not so much. But we have sparred from time to time over American city grids, and urban design issues that all of about 100 people get really into. Beyond that, he’s a passionate San Diegan, and a very accomplished planner and designer. We finally had a chance to do a podcast together, and soldie...

Marina Khoury is easily one of the most accomplished people in the world of urban design and planning that you probably don’t know. From Lebanon to Paris to Wisconsin and ultimately to work at DPZ CoDesign, Marina’s career has spanned a remarkable amount of work and experiences. The Miami21 zoning code alone is a heroic effort, worthy of great study for large cities nationwide. We trace Marina’s w...

Not to be redundant, but Arti Harchekar is a joy to talk with. The author of the unique and fascinating blog, Joyful Urbanist , Arti has moved from planning to design to now the tech world, but always explores her interest in cities, towns and how places make us feel. I knew early on that Arti would do really great things, and it wouldn’t surprise me if one day much more of the world knows her and...

At the CNU31 and Strong Towns National Gathering confabs this year, I heard a lot of language that would put planners and designers in a very small minority outside the walls of the conference center. I get it - it’s a niche audience. It exists to critique American cities and towns, and make them better. A fair amount of what happens is venting. But an awful lot of what I increasingly hear simply...

John Anderson was one of the first people I got to know when I was a young pup architect trying to get involved with New Urbanism. I did my first design charrette with John and others in 1999, in Truckee, CA. We subsequently worked together many times over the years, in both planning and architecture work. I’ve seen John rise to being a minor celebrity in this world, and see him inspire countless...

Ali Quinlan is easily one of the most impressive people I’ve ever talked with, and makes me feel like I’m not doing nearly enough with my time. She’ll almost certainly have the same impact on you. In this second discussion at CNU31, Ali talks about her path becoming an architect, landscape architect, business owner, and developer. And she talks about how to balance it all while being a single Mom...

This is the first of three conversations I recorded at CNU31 in Charlotte in late May/early June. I’ll roll the rest out in coming weeks - each was VERY different, but thoroughly enjoyable. Here’s a tease: I had my first guest cry on-air. Andy Boneau is just a really fun and interesting person to talk with. Part engineer, part planner, part marketing and messaging expert, and now a documentary fil...

Aaron Lubeck doesn’t just have opinions, he’s willing to share them. Honestly. He’s also a guy with a very unusual career path for urban design and planning coaching. Part developer, part historic preservationist, part designer, and now part journalist, Aaron and I cover a lot of ground. How do we find and create more small developers in our community, and actually help them succeed? How can we es...

Kevin’s editorial note : I’ve had some questions about making transcripts of these available, for those who’d prefer to read instead of listen to the podcasts. I’m looking into it, especially what AI tools might help. Just know I have exceptionally limited time, and there’s no way I’m going to spend an additional hour or two each week refining a transcript. At this point in my life, it’s just not...

Being a Director of City Planning is glamorous, right? Isn’t that what Seinfeld taught us? Rob Richardson has been a Planning Director in both Kansas City, Kansas (the Unified Government of Wyandotte County) and Raymore, Missouri. He’s also worked as a planner in Independence, Missouri. We discuss the reality of the job in those communities, and the challenges of working in places that aren’t weal...

Nathan Norris and I have been involved in New Urbanism and the Congress for the New Urbanism for more than 25 years. And yet, our backgrounds and path to it couldn’t be more different. Nathan came a military and a legal background, while I came from an architecture and design background. In fact, most New Urbanists were originally like me, and people like Nathan were the outliers. Nathan talks abo...

It’s a tale of two Kevins, as we discuss cultivating local prosperity and the Strong Towns message with Kevin Shepherd of Verdunity . Kevin is an engineer by background, and started his own planning and engineering firm just over a decade ago in the Dallas area. He left the corporate world to follow his calling to help cities and towns make more fiscally-productive decisions with land use and infr...

In just a few short years, Andrew Ganahl has already made a notable impact in the urban development world in Kansas City. He’s developed three new projects in the urban core, is working on more, and he’s shown how persistence and a positive attitude can get a whole lot done in short order. But, he’s not only not from Kansas City, he’s also only recently become a developer. The Stanford and Harvard...

The notorious and excellent blogger, Mr. Money Mustache, wrote a worlds-colliding piece a couple weeks ago called “Less Cars, More Money: My Visit to the City of the Future.” MMM writes at length about culdesac Tempe , which we discussed on a previous podcast with Dan Parolek of Opticos Design. MMM is the GOAT in many respects for the Financial Independence movement. If you’ve touched that world a...

How do you find an outlet for your passion for your place, especially when you don’t feel you have the money necessary to get started? Is it possible to still see yourself as a developer? Jason, Shomari and I have a LOT to discuss in this episode. In my longest interview to-date, we talk about a wide range of topics from getting started in development, to being the change in your own community, an...

Sometimes, you run across people that get you very inspired and fired up for action. They make you want to run through a wall to get started NOW. This episode features two such people. I challenge you not to be energized and excited to do something good for your own community. Bernice Radle is the CEO and Founder of Buffalove Development . She started the company in 2012, and focuses exclusively o...

Dan Parolek co-founded Opticos Design with his wife Karen about 25 years ago. Since then, Opticos has become a national leader in the field of urban planning and design. Dan has authored two seminal books, Form-Based Codes: A Guide for Planners, Urban Designers, Municipalities and Developers and Missing Middle Housing: Thinking Big and Building Small to Respond to Today’s Housing Crisis . Dan is a...

For those of us who are a certain age, we remember Paul Harvey’s unique voice entertaining and enlightening us on the radio. His regular shows told us “The Rest of the Story.” For me, that was usually in the car, on long family road trips, trips to school, or trips across southern Minnesota to go to Rochester for the SE Minnesota Youth Orchestra every week (SEMYO, for those in the know). I cherish...

New Town St. Charles is one of the most ambitious developments in the history of not only St. Louis, but also the New Urbanism movement. New Town was conceived, planned and built by Whitaker Builders. Tim Busse is the long-time Town Architect for Whitaker Builders and the town. In this episode we explore lessons learned from trying to create a walkable place from scratch, and doing so within the w...

Are you a pessimist or an optimist in regards to America’s built landscape, and its future? How can we all find a way to navigate changes that are coming? Johnny Sanphillippo writes the Granola Shotgun blog, where he frequently challenges narratives about cities, suburbs, and what individuals can do. If you’re a lover of walkable places, is it possible to turn the battleship of the last 70+ years...

Incremental change in cities, the kind that used to be by-right, has become progressively more difficult since the creation of zoning and the reforms of the 20th century. How do people who value messy cities and incremental change begin to make change in this environment? How is the context for cities in the middle of the country unique? Dennis Strait and Abby Kinney join the podcast to discuss th...

Steve Mouzon, www.mouzon.com , is one of the long-time architects and designers from the New Urbanism movement. Steve has written multiple books, including the series of “A Living Tradition” books, and “The Original Green.” We cover what Steve is currently working on in terms of his writing and publication ventures. We also take a dive into The Original Green - what is it, what led Steve to it, an...

What is a Messy City? Who is Kevin Klinkenberg? In this episode, I’ll introduce myself to those of you who don’t know me, and set the table for what this podcast will cover. I’ll also review and read through a blog post from 2018 called, “What is a Messy City.” Feedback is always appreciated. If you have a moment, please subscribe to the podcast, share it with a friend, and leave a review. Get ful...