The Last Service Podcast

What does it look like when a church ends well? In this episode of the Last Service Podcast, host Matt McGee sits down with Pastor Sara Olson-Smith, author of Eulogy for a Faithful Church, to tell the story of St. Peter Lutheran Church in North Plainfield, New Jersey. Sara was St. Peter's final pastor, arriving fresh out of seminary only to walk her congregation through one of the most spiritually...

Episode Overview What do you do when your church's budget doesn't match its values? Pastor Kevin Boyd of Legacy Church in Plano, Texas faced exactly that tension. With 36–42% of the budget going to facility overhead and only 14–17% to mission and ministry, something had to change. Rather than slowly adjusting line items over a decade, Pastor Boyd made a bold move: swap buildings with a neighboring...

As Season Two of The Last Service Podcast comes to a close, host Matt McGee sits down for a relaxed, wide-ranging “potluck conversation” with pastor, veteran, and discipleship leader James Floyd. This episode blends humor, hard-won wisdom, and deep theological reflection as they explore failure, identity, finishing well, church decline, and what it really means to follow Jesus beyond platforms and...

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt sits down with Rev. Nancy Dolan, a Presbyterian pastor with 20+ years of corporate HR/organizational development experience, to walk through the remarkable and deeply pastoral journey of helping Kirk of the Lakes—a once-thriving suburban congregation—discern its future with honesty, courage, and hope. Nancy tells the full story: from the church’s s...

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt McGee sits down with songwriter, producer, and author Andrew Osenga to explore what decades of touring, worship leading, and church observation have taught him about the American church’s changing landscape. Osenga reflects on thirty years of visiting more than a thousand congregations—from small rural Bible churches to sprawling suburban camp...

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt McGee welcomes back Dr. Will Willimon, former bishop in the United Methodist Church, professor at Duke Divinity School, and author of more than 70 books; for a candid conversation about his latest work, The Church We Carry: Loss, Leadership, and the Future of Our Church. Drawing from the story of his own home congregation in South Carolina, Dr. Wil...

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt talks with Joshua Gordon, pastor and author of How to Close a Church: Seven Steps to a Grace-Filled and Thoughtful Closing. Josh shares his story of serving at a church that eventually closed, what he learned from later shutting down his own ministry, and how endings, while painful, can become opportunities for healing and renewal. Together, they e...

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt McGee is joined by Rick Reinhard—consultant, urban planner, and national thought leader on the redevelopment of faith-based properties. Together, they dive deep into the reality behind the wave of church closures sweeping across North America and explore what congregations and communities can do before it’s too late. Rick shares his insights from d...

Matt sits down with beloved preacher, bishop, and author Dr. Will Willimon to talk about what it means for churches to age gracefully—and even die faithfully. Drawing on decades of ministry, Willimon unpacks the crisis and opportunity of aging congregations, shares compelling stories of churches handing off their legacy, and invites us to rethink what “decline” really means. What You’ll Learn: Why...

In this insightful and heartfelt episode, Matt welcomes campus minister and author Casey Coston to discuss the challenges and beauty of a life spent in ministry. With over two decades of experience—from Ole Miss to the University of Delaware—Casey shares the inspiration behind his book Made Competent, and opens up about the trials of leadership, church decline, bivocational ministry, and maintaini...

In this powerful episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt sits down with Bruce Deel, CEO of City of Refuge, to explore an extraordinary story of transformation. Originally tasked with closing Mission Church at 14th Street, Bruce found himself in the midst of a divine calling to revitalize the church into a thriving ministry center. Discover how compassion, trust, and a willingness to adapt led to...

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, author and speaker Michelle Van Loon discusses the realities of church closures, the challenges of leadership, and how congregations can embrace endings with faith and wisdom. Michelle shares insights from her Plough article  "A Good Death for Dying Churches" and her personal experiences with church transitions, including the closure of Grace Bible Fell...

In this episode of the Last Service Podcast, Matt welcomes Sam Rainer, pastor, church consultant, and president of Church Answers, for a candid discussion about the state of the American church. Together, they explore the challenges facing congregations today, from declining membership to generational shifts in engagement. Sam shares actionable insights on how churches can revitalize, stay relevan...

🎙️ Episode Highlights In this special recap episode, host [Matt] reflects on the journey through Season 1 of The Last Service Podcast. Joined by his wife, Maureen, they dive into the heart of the podcast’s mission—exploring church closures, transitions, and the faithful endings that can lead to new beginnings. ✨ Key Topics Covered: Season Favorites: Episode 5: The heartfelt story of Rehoboth Pres...

In this powerful season finale, Matt sits down with the legendary religion news reporter and author Bob Smietana to explore the pressing realities facing churches today. From demographic shifts to the challenges of revitalization, Bob shares insights from his acclaimed book, Reorganized Religion, and personal experiences with church closures. This episode is packed with heartfelt stories, actionab...

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt dives into a conversation with Reverend Dr. Katie Nix and Reverend Dr. Phil Blackwell, pastors who led two congregations through a unique journey of merger and renewal. They share the incredible challenges and blessings of bringing together two legacy churches into a unified, mission-focused community. This merger took place amidst the complexities...

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, we dive into the profound journey of pastoral transitions with Matt Davis, host of the Life After Ministry Podcast. Matt shares his personal experiences of stepping away from ministry after a moral failure and navigating life outside the church. This episode explores the emotional and logistical challenges pastors face when leaving a church and provides...

In this powerful episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt continues his conversation with Reverend Lorrin Radzik as they explore the complexities of church closures. Lorrin shares her personal journey of closing multiple churches and the unique challenges faced when congregations are forced to confront their own mortality. Together, they dive into how pastors can lead through difficult decisions,...

In this raw and insightful episode, Matt sits down with Rev. Lorrin Radzik, a United Methodist pastor with a powerful story of navigating the complexities of ministry, church closure, and personal growth. Lorrin shares her experience leading a struggling congregation in Wisconsin, where she guided the church through the challenging decision to close after decades of decline. Her journey, filled wi...

In this compelling episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt interviews Dave Meserve, an experienced transitional pastor who has guided multiple churches through the difficult process of closing. Dave shares powerful stories and invaluable insights on how to approach church closures with compassion, wisdom, and a focus on spiritual health. Key Points: Dave's unique journey from traditional mi...

In this episode, host Matt interviews Gail Cafferata, author of "The Last Pastor" and a retired Episcopal priest who closed a church. Gail shares her personal experience closing a congregation and insights from her research surveying over 100 pastors who have gone through church closures. Key topics discussed: - Gail's background as a medical sociologist and Episcopal priest - The emotional and ca...

In this episode, we sit down with Mike Sares, director of Urban Skye, to discuss their unique approach to ministry outside traditional church structures. Mike shares insights from his extensive experience, including pastoring Scum of the Earth Church and working with various faith entrepreneurs. Key points covered: • Urban Skye acts as an umbrella organization for freelance pastors, providing admi...

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt interviews Bart McDonald from the Southern Baptist of Texas Foundation about their innovative Jubilee Program. This program helps struggling churches preserve their assets and legacy while transitioning to new ministries or congregations. Key Points: The Jubilee Program is based on biblical principles from Leviticus and Deuteronomy It allows d...

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt McGee interviews Dr. Myles Werntz, Associate Professor of Theology at Abilene Christian University. They discuss the concept of scarcity in churches and how it's affecting congregations across denominations. Dr. Werntz shares insights from his recent Christianity Today article "Scarcity's Strange Gifts" and explores the challenges and opportun...

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt interviews Dr. Stanley Granberg, founder of Heritage 21, an organization dedicated to helping declining churches make critical decisions about their future. Dr. Granberg shares his extensive experience in church planting, missions, and organizational leadership, offering valuable insights into the challenges facing aging congregations. Key top...