The Elements of Deep Sea Mining

Coalter Lathrop returns ten months after Episode 21, and the DSHMRA application story has grown significantly messier. Five applications are now public on NOAA’s site — four companies, two of which are subsidiaries of American Metal Incorporated, an entity that didn’t exist until January 2025, with one applicant incorporating as recently as August 2025. His read on the motivation ranges from holdi...

In this episode, Ellen walks us through the method behind a remarkable 2025 report: a structured, voluntary exercise that translated dozens of competing societal concerns into 80 concrete, actionable research questions about the environmental impacts of polymetallic nodule mining in the Clarion-Clipperton Zone. The process drew on input from industry contractors, environmental organizations, polic...

In this episode, Thomas Kuhn (Marine Geologist and Project Manager, Federal Institute for Geosciences and Natural Resources – BGR, Germany) breaks down how ferromanganese crusts form on the ocean floor, and why the scientific community has been looking at the wrong part of the mountain for decades. This conversation gets deep into the chemistry of cobalt enrichment, the role of tidal currents in e...

In this episode, Dr. Rozemarijn Roland Holst, Lecturer in International Environmental Law at the University of Edinburgh, traces the full arc of the Common Heritage of Mankind principle: how it emerged from Arvid Pardo’s 1967 UN speech, what different states understood it to mean through the UNCLOS negotiations, how the 1994 Implementing Agreement reshaped the regime, and what its open-ended chara...

DSHMRA has been sitting on the shelf for forty years and most people in the deep sea mining space still haven't read it. Brandon Tuck has; and his read is that the framework is significantly more protective than the international discourse gives it credit for. The no-significant-environmental-impacts standard isn't a policy aspiration; it's a statutory prohibition that is more onerous than NEPA re...

In this episode, I’m joined by Kara Fox, an award-winning investigative reporter at CNN International, and Elizabeth Alberts, senior staff writer at Mongabay’s Ocean Desk and Pulitzer Center fellow, who together co-published a major investigation: * CNN article: China’s Growing Influence in the Pacific Is 5,000 Meters Deep * Mongabay article: China’s Deep-Sea Mining Fleet May Also Track US Submari...

In this episode, Anette Brock-Mathisen-Tvedt, CEO of Adept Minerals, discusses Norway’s decision to pause deep-sea mining licensing and the political debate surrounding seabed mineral development. She shares how her company approaches exploration, technology development, and building a responsible value chain, while navigating regulatory uncertainty and shifting industry dynamics. The conversation...

Recorded at the Seabed Minerals Conference in Bergen, Norway , this episode features Dr. Kerstin Kröger, a deep-sea ecologist and Marine Management Adviser who, over the course of a 1.5-year sabbatical, dove deep into the legal frameworks governing the world’s ocean floors. Kerstin speaks openly about what it means to operate at the science-policy interface, why scientists must learn the language...

Steven Emerman, owner of Malach Consulting and a former Princeton and Cornell-trained geophysicist, brings an unusual perspective to deep sea mining. He came to it from decades of evaluating mining disclosures across the terrestrial mining industry. Commissioned by the Deep Sea Mining Campaign, Greenpeace International, and Mining Watch Canada, Emerman reviewed The Metals Company’s pre-feasibility...

In this episode, I spoke with Kaja Lønn Fjærtoft, Global Policy Lead for Deep Sea Mining at WWF, about the policy and regulatory debates shaping the future of seabed mining. The conversation focuses heavily on Norway’s seabed minerals process, which has become one of the most closely watched national developments in the global deep sea mining debate. Kaja walks through how the regulatory framework...

How does complex, multivariate systems thinking shows up in both criticality and deep-sea mineralogy? The second part of this technical deep dive transitions from the geopolitical landscape of supply chains to the geological mysteries of the ocean floor. Pierre Josso shares his specialized expertise in geochemistry to explain how mineral deposits such as nodules and massive sulfides form over mill...

In this episode, Pierre Josso (Deputy Director, Critical Minerals Intelligence Centre – British Geological Survey) breaks down the concept of criticality as a function of risk, priorities and politics . This conversation gets deep into how critical minerals are actually assessed , why supply disruptions happen, and why we have to remember the point is communication toward decision making. Pierre b...

In this episode, I spoke with Paul Hirsch , Professor of Environmental Studies at the State University of New York College of Environmental Science and Forestry, where he directs graduate programs in environmental leadership and decision making. Hirsch’s research focuses on how societies navigate difficult environmental decisions involving competing values, uncertainty, and governance challenges....

Claudiu Ed Nedelciu, Ecological Economics Researcher at UiB joins the podcast to challenge the “inevitability narrative” of deep-sea mining. While the industry often frames extraction as a prerequisite for a green transition, Ed argues that this demand is artificially sustained by Growthism , a systemic requirement for 2-3% annual GDP growth that operates independently of actual human or environme...

I speak with Craig Shesky, Chief Financial Officer of The Metals Company. Craig walks me through the financial and regulatory architecture behind TMC’s plans: what a pre-feasibility study actually means, what SEC reporting requires, and why the company is pursuing a U.S. regulatory pathway. This episode is about the mechanics — and the scrutiny — of trying to move a controversial resource project...

In this episode, Andrew Thaler — deep-sea ecologist, conservation technologist, and recent witness before the U.S. House Natural Resources Committee — lays out a position that resists the normal pro/anti DSM categorization. Drawing on nearly two decades of work across industry, NGOs, and policy forums, Andrew argues that impacts to the abyssal plain should be treated as effectively permanent and t...

In this episode of the Elements of Deep Sea Mining podcast, Nathan Eastwood, a partner at Watson Farley Williams, shares his extensive knowledge on international law and deep sea mining. He discusses the legal framework surrounding seabed mining, the challenges faced by the International Seabed Authority in adopting exploitation regulations, and the implications of U.S. regulations under the Deep...

Check out full notes and linkes to articles referenced at Elyse’s Substack: If you don’t know all of the names and terms well, this glossary may be helpful. Plus, follow along with the show notes and links below. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit tradingoff.substack.com/subscribe

Geophysicist Dr. Anna Lim has spent the past several years turning the invisible into the intelligible—designing and leading deep-ocean exploration campaigns that map and model what lies four kilometres beneath the sea surface. Formerly Manager & Discipline Lead for Marine Minerals and Deep-Ocean Space Exploration at Argeo, Anna joins Eric to unpack what “exploration” really means: how you plan a...

After the formal deep-sea mining debate, Oliver, Victor, and I stayed on the line for a more casual conversation about how to disagree constructively . They continue to clash on the economics, the technology, and the strategic case for deep-sea mining—but the tone stays respectful and focused on substance. This episode gives you a peek behind the scenes at how serious disagreements don’t have to b...

This debate centers around the necessity and implications of deep sea mining, featuring Oliver Gunasekra advocating for its potential benefits and Victor Vescovo expressing skepticism regarding its environmental impact and economic viability. The discussion covers various aspects including environmental responsibility, the essential nature of deep sea minerals, economic viability, technological fe...

In this episode, I speak with Dr. Espen Stabell , philosopher at the Western Norway University of Applied Sciences (HVL) and NTNU — and my PhD supervisor — about the ethical dimensions of deep-sea mining. We trace the foundations of environmental philosophy and how environmental ethics emerged as a response to growing ecological awareness in the 1970s. We discuss what moral philosophy can actually...

Dr. Rahul Sharma — is former Chief Scientist at India’s CSIR–National Institute of Oceanography , Goa, India. With more than 40 years of experience exploring and assessing marine minerals, Dr. Sharma is among the world’s foremost experts in deep-sea mining research. He holds a Master’s degree in Geology and a Doctorate in Marine Science , and his work has helped define India’s marine mineral progr...

Stig-Morten Knutsen is Chief Geologist at the Norwegian Offshore Directorate, Vice Chair of the UN Expert Group on Resource Management, and a member of the UN Commission on the Limits of the Continental Shelf. In these roles, he grapples with some of the biggest—and most uncomfortable—questions in resource management: how to balance risk, uncertainty, and trust across industries ranging from oil a...

In the second half of this conversation, Jesse digs deeper into the specifics of the potential environmental impacts from deep sea mining, as well as getting into regulatory frameworks and the importance of trust to the future of deep sea mining. Dr. Jesse van der Grient is a quantitative ecologist whose work focuses on how ecosystems connect — across habitats, species, and stressors. She brings a...