The Church Lobby

Karl Vaters talks with Frank Wooden about Microchurches. Frank has been a church planter for decades, but is now concentrating on the Microchurch model as a valid, healthy alternative in a changing cultural landscape. Karl and Frank talk about: What Microchurch is Why it’s so appealing right now Some cautions to be aware of Three reasons the Microchurch model can work for a church of any size How...

Karl Vaters talks with Laurie Acker about the changing face of small church ministry, especially as it relates to recruiting, training, and relying on the volunteers who are so essential in helping small churches survive and thrive in a changing world. Laurie runs SmallChurchMinistry.com , an online ministry that provides resources and support for volunteers and ministry leaders in smaller ch...

Pastoring in a post-Christian context is different. The more counter-cultural our faith becomes, the more important it is to understand that Christian consumerism is deadly and church cooperation is essential. Karl Vaters talks with Dan Nichols about these subjects, including: Negotiating a cultural shift in a longstanding church Partnering with other churches Bridging the big/small church divide...

As we come to the end of our ten-part series based on  De-sizing the Church , we’re highlighting portions of conversations Karl Vaters had with five church leaders from various backgrounds about their first reactions to reading the book. Drew Dyck  (author and editor) talks about the dangers of Christian celebrity. Peyton Jones  (author and church planter) discusses how churches ope...

Karl Vaters talks with Mike Rubino about his First Reaction to the first chapter of  De-sizing the Church , The Danger of Idolizing Outcomes. Karl and Mike look at: The difference between a church that is trending or transforming The biggest mistakes churches make regarding metrics Why “idolatry” is not too strong a term for how many churches and pastors approach size, growth, and outcomes An...

A conversation   with Matt Steen about the potential dangers of replatforming fallen pastors too quickly. This is the first of three First Reaction episodes in which I talk to people who read advance copies of De-sizing the Church to get their response to some of the issues I raise in it. As the co-founder of Chemistry Staffing , which helps churches find great staff members, and staff member...

Fame and celebrity have many downsides. But Daniel Darling brings a balanced approach to this subject by reminding us that fame is also what allows a good message to get through the clutter. In this episode, Karl talks with Dan about a Twitter thread Dan wrote expressing appreciation for the fame of Tim Keller. It was Tim Keller's platform and the celebrity status it gave him that allowed Dan and...

What happens when a pastor sets out, not to minister to people who look like him, but to purposely reach people who look as different from his current congregation as possible? That’s what Dave Gibbons, the founding pastor of Newsong Church in Orange County, CA did. In this episode, Karl Vaters talks with him about the planting of Newsong, the challenges Dave faced when he decided to guide them to...

Meritocracy has become embedded in the American church. In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Scot McKnight about why this is dangerous, how to notice the warning signs of a toxic church culture, the problems with being or following a narcissistic leader, and more. Scot McKnight is the co-author (with Laura Barringer) of A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of...

Karl Vaters interviews Bob Smietana, a columnist for Religion News Service , and the author of Reorganized Religion: The Reshaping of the American Church and Why it Matters . Bob and Karl discuss some of unintended consequences of the Church Growth Movement from Bob's unique vantage point. They also delve into the dangers of bigness and what we can do about it. Then they discuss Smietana’s fascina...

If small church pastors have a modern patron saint, Eugene Peterson might be it. In this episode, Karl Vaters talks with Peterson’s biographer, Winn Collier about the places where Winn’s book, A Burning in My Bones: The Authorized Biography of Eugene H. Peterson, Translator of The Message,   overlaps with Karl's book, De-sizing the Church . They talk about how Winn was entrusted to write Pete...

One of the biggest dangers of our obsession with church size is the rise of the Christian celebrity culture. Katelyn Beaty is the author of Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church . Katelyn defines celebrity as “social power without proximity.” In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Katelyn about what that means, why it’s a problem, and why we in th...

We have an unhealthy relationship with bigness in the church. Especially in the American church. And it’s killing us. The rate of church closures, departing members, and pastoral burnout is growing exponentially. This is the first episode of a series of podcasts based on Karl Vaters’ new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next . Karl talks...

Have you ever felt like your church is “less than” because you don’t have a worship experience with the talented musicians you’ve seen in larger churches? According to Teresa Stewart, not only is that not needed for an excellent worship experience, but the small church actually has advantages that are not always available to our big-church friends. In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Tere...

Ian Borkent is a pastor in the Netherlands who walked through a season of ministry burnout and now helps pastors address this issue in their own lives through the ministry of  Grow a Healthy Soul . In this episode we’ll talk about the causes of pastoral burnout, how to avoid it, and how to recruit church members to the task of helping pastors by employing the five-fold ministry gifts. Also, I...

Our brains are the most important, but least understood part of our body. In this episode, Karl Vaters interviews Michel Hendricks about the fascinating place where faith and brain science intersect. Michel is the co-author (with Jim Wilder) of  The Other Half of Church: Christian Community, Brain Science, and Overcoming Spiritual Stagnation ,  which Karl listed as one of his top ten boo...

This is the second of two very special episodes that we’re doing in back-to-back weeks instead of our usual bi-weekly schedule. This episode features the message I preached in January 2024, on the day our church honored Shelley and me for our 31 years of serving the church on staff. In this message, I talked about what we’re doing next, including why God has called us to the ministry of Helping Sm...

This is the first of two very special episodes that we’re doing in back-to-back weeks, instead of our usual bi-weekly schedule. In January 2024, Karl and Shelley Vaters were honored by their home church as they ended 31 years on the pastoral staff—25 years as lead pastor, six years as teaching pastor. This, and the next episode of The Church Lobby are taken from...

A little over a year ago, A.I. came into our lives in a big way. Suddenly, it seemed to be everywhere. Karl Vaters talks with Jason Moore about what A.I. is, why it came into our lives so suddenly, and what its strengths and dangers are.  Then they spend the bulk of this slightly longer-than-usual episode with Jason physically walking us through using A.I. in real time, showing it to us on hi...

Everyone has an opinion about live streaming, pro or con. As I sift through it, I only want to give a platform to the most helpful, thoughtful voices, and Tim Fox is one of them. In this podcast, we talk about the content of a Facebook post Tim wrote that challenged the reasons most churches live stream their services, while offering some thoughtful alternatives. Tim is not anti tech, but he is go...

Pastors need to read, not just for information, but for  formation . Austin Carty and Karl Vaters cover topics like: The importance of reading many types of books, not just works of theology and leadership How reading helps us become more mature, wise, and caring How reading the Bible with a sense of wonder helps embed its truths into our lives How important it is to take reading seriously, n...

Just showing up in people’s lives is such an important aspect of life and ministry. Karl Vaters talks with Drew Dyck about why this is so important, as outlined in Drew’s new book,  Just Show Up: How Small Acts of Faithfulness Change Everything (A Guide for Exhausted Christians) . Including: The value of our physical presence in pastoral ministry The importance of quantity vs quality time How...

Burnout is a huge issue among pastors. But did you know there’s a simple (but not simplistic) way to start addressing and reducing burnout? And that your congregation can help you with it? That’s the premise of Karl's conversation with Josh Taylor, based on his book,  A Preach Well Church: How Churches Can Stop Burning Out Pastors . Josh and Karl talk a...

There are so many books about how to turn a lifeless church around. Most concentrate on the pastor’s role. But what about the role of the congregation members? In small churches, this is especially important. Karl Vaters talks with Bud Brown about how to help the congregation become agents of life and hope in a dying church through the power of prayer, from the content of the book,  Lifeless...

In a recent survey, 80 percent of respondents said "yes" to the question, “since serving on a church board, do you feel your spiritual life has declined?” Why is this happening, and what can be done about it? In this episode, Karl Vaters talks with Dave Beckwith about How to Turn Your Board Meetings Into God Meetings, including How our current corporate style of board meetings isn’t just...