Can Church Be Healthy Podcast

Episode 8: The Practice of Repair In every relationship—marriage, friendship, leadership, or church community—ruptures are inevitable. What matters most is how we repair .  In this episode, Jon and Tom talk about the sacred work of relational repair: how to name the hurt, take responsibility, and rebuild trust in ways that strengthen connection rather than fracture it further.  Drawing from both p...

Episode 7: Attachment: Understanding How We Connect to God, Self, and Others Jon and Tom explore the science of attachment—how our earliest relational bonds shape the way we connect with God, self, and others.  They discuss why understanding attachment matters for spiritual growth and community life, and how churches can become places that nurture secure, life-giving relationships.

Episode 6: Understanding Trauma and the Church In this episode, Jon and Tom take on the crucial topic of trauma—what it is, how it shapes people’s lives, and why the Church must learn to respond with wisdom and compassion.  Too often, trauma is misunderstood or minimized in spiritual spaces, leaving people feeling unseen or even re-wounded.  Jon and Tom discuss how leaders and communities can bett...

Episode 5: Parts Work and Church Systems (Part 2) In this follow-up conversation, Jon and Tom build on their exploration of Internal Family Systems by turning the lens toward the Church itself. Just like individuals, church systems can either create space for honesty and healing—or push leaders to hide until crisis erupts. This episode encourages churches to reimagine their culture and structures...

Episode 4: The Parts of Us (Part 1) In this episode, Jon and Tom dive into the transformative framework of  Internal Family Systems (IFS) —a lens that’s helped them understand why they, and those they lead, show up the way they do. By exploring the “parts” within us—protectors, exiles, managers—they unpack how our internal dynamics shape our relationships, leadership, and even our spirituality. Th...

Episode 1: Can Church Be Healthy? In this opening episode, Jon and Tom explore what it would take for the Church to become a  safe  place—a space where people feel genuinely loved, welcomed home, and free to be honest about their real lives. They ask: Can a church be both emotionally safe  and  spiritually serious? Can it call people toward deep character transformation and the pursuit of holiness...

Episode 2: Roles In this episode, Jon and Tom unpack the important differences between the roles of pastor, therapist, coach, spiritual director, psychologist, and psychiatrist. In a world where people are seeking help, healing, and direction, it’s vital to know who does what—and where the limits and boundaries of each role lie. Whether you're looking for emotional support, spiritual guidance,...

Episode 3: Story Before Skills In this episode, Jon and Tom explore why the  story  of our lives—our personal history, wounds, and formative experiences—has a profound impact on the  fruit  of our lives. While many churches focus on teaching skills like prayer, discipleship, and evangelism, far fewer help people examine the pain or patterns in their past that may be hindering spiritual growth. The...

Welcome to the  Can Church Be Healthy?   Podcast  — where a pastor and a therapist get curious about this experience we call the church, and the fruit it’s currently producing—especially here in the Western world. Hosts Jon Shirley (pastor) and Tom Page (therapist) take a thoughtful, honest look at why so many people today feel disillusioned, wounded, or just plain confused by church. From abuse s...