The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Is wanting to be rich selfish? Does making money require exploiting other people? Or can the pursuit of wealth actually benefit society? In this episode guest host Sally Herships speaks with philosopher Jason Brennan about his book, Why It's OK to Want to Be Rich. Jason makes the case that both wanting money and earning money are signs that we’re creating value for society. In this conversation, t...

The Gray Area is taking a break today — but we’ve got something special for you. We’re dropping an episode from one of our favorite podcasts, Unexplainable from Vox. In it, host Sally Helm considers whether or not it’s ethical to kill lantern flies, an invasive species that has gained a foothold on the East Coast of the US.In the episode Sally explores what we owe other living creatures, how squis...

We were told that airing our personal trauma in public would set us free. Instead, we got “the trauma script,” celebrity branding, and performative empathy. In today's episode, guest host Christine Emba talks with cultural theorist and professor Catherine Liu, author of Traumatized: The New Politics of Public Suffering. In this scathing book, Catherine argues that our modern obsession with the "tr...

In today's episode, Vox senior reporter and producer Miles Bryan talks with writer Daniel Kolitz about his piece for The Baffler, "Paid Phones." Kolitz explains what it felt like to be among the first wave of workers displaced by generative AI. The two of them talked about how fintech payday loan apps use hidden fees and subscriptions to profit off of desperate borrowers, and how an online communi...

What should a college teach? How to think? How to find a career? How to be a good citizen? What about how to acquire money, influence, and power? In today’s episode, guest host Bryan Walsh speaks to journalist and writer Theo Baker about his investigation into Stanford University, where Baker was an undergrad student at the time. He entered the school as a bright-eye freshman, eager to build a car...

Why does it feel so hard to start a family today? How much of that is truly a personal choice? In this episode of The Gray Area, guest host Christine Emba sits down with journalist Anna Louie Sussman to discuss her new book, Inconceivable: The Impossibility of Family in an Age of Uncertainty. Together, they look past the surface-level "cost of living" arguments to explore how economic volatility,...

Is "adulthood" a moving target? For millennials, hitting the milestones of the past — homeownership, secure careers, and financial independence — feels tougher than ever. We aren't just having our individual midlife crises; we are simultaneously navigating economic, cultural, and existential crises too. Guest host Jonquilyn Hill sits down with Amil Niazi, columnist at The Cut, to explore why this...

If you could change anything about your personality, anything at all, what would it be? And why would you want to change it? Writer Olga Khazan spent a year trying to answer those questions, and documented the experience in her new book Me, But Better: The Science and Promise of Personality Change. In this episode, which originally aired in March of 2025, Sean speaks with Olga about the science of...

We’ve all heard that "sitting is the new smoking," but the research behind that phrase goes much deeper. How bad is sitting for you really? In this episode guest host Bryan Walsh is joined by Manoush Zomorodi — host of NPR’s TED Radio Hour and author of Body Electric — to explore how our sedentary, screen-filled lives are reshaping our physical health from the neck down. Manoush shares findings fr...

Are we truly alone in the universe? Despite the lack of hard evidence, belief in aliens and UFOs, officially known as Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAP), has shifted from the fringes to the center of mainstream culture. In this episode of The Gray Area, host Jonquilyn Hill is joined by Adam Kirsch, senior editor at The Atlantic and author of the new book We Want to Believe: How Aliens Went Mai...

Have you noticed the bad vibes around dating lately? Whether you’re swiping on apps or scrolling through social media, it’s easy to feel like the romantic landscape has become a battleground — at least, for the heterosexual among us. This pervasive feeling of hopelessness and negativity — often called "hetero-pessimism" — is everywhere. But is this cynicism the actual picture, or is it just anothe...

Is it ever okay to put a price on a kidney? Why is it illegal to sell an organ, but perfectly legal to sell blood plasma? This episode explores the world of "repugnant transactions" — the markets we find morally offensive — and asks why we ban certain markets as "gross" or "unethical" while ignoring others that might cause more harm. In this episode of The Gray Area, host Bryan Walsh sits down wit...

We like to think of memory as a record of the past. But that’s not really what it is. Memory doesn’t keep the past — it can also remake it. It stitches fragments into stories, and those stories — true or not — are what we end up calling our life, and sometimes, our collective history. Today’s episode is a rerun of an interview that originally published last year with Charan Ranganath, a neuroscien...

Sigmund Freud is probably the most famous psychoanalyst. Yet many of his theories have been critiqued or discredited. So is there anything we can still learn from the father of psychoanalysis? In today’s episode Sean speaks with professor Mark Solms, author of The Only Cure: Freud and the Neuroscience of Mental Healing. Mark argues that while Freud may have been wrong about many things, he was rig...

The internet is rife with chatter about “heteropessimism,” the feeling that gender relations are broken and heterosexual relationships are doomed. But is this just cynical discourse, like a coping mechanism for bad dates? Or is this a symptom of a much deeper, systemic breakdown? In this episode of The Gray Area, guest host Jonquilyn Hill is joined by Sarah Jones, senior writer for The Intelligenc...

What happens when we read less? What does that do to our ability to understand complex ideas, or even think for ourselves? In today’s episode, guest host Jonquilyn Hill speaks with Atlantic staff writer Rose Horowitch. In her recent cover story, Rose argues that we are entering a postliterate age. Although we’re surrounded by text — like emails, text messages, and notifications — we no longer have...

The Gray Area is taking a short break this week — but we’ve got something special for you. We’re dropping an episode from one of our favorite podcasts, Unexplainable. In it, host Noam Hassenfeld and Vox senior reporter Sigal Samuel explore one of the biggest dilemmas facing growing families: How much should parents decide about their children’s future from prenatal testing alone? Noam and Sigal wr...

Sean talks with writer and philosopher Ian Bogost about his new book The Small Stuff. They discuss what modern life has lost in its pursuit of convenience, efficiency, and optimization. From stick shifts to coffee cups, lawnmowers, and smartphones, Bogost argues that many of the small sensory experiences that once connected us to the physical world have quietly disappeared. Host: Sean Illing (@sea...

The internet is changing. For years our primary gateway to the internet has been search engines: we ask a question, a list of websites pops up, and we choose which ones to click on. But we are rapidly headed towards a different model, one in which AI-generated answers to our questions are our primary gateway to the internet. How we got here starts with Google. In today’s episode, guest host Miles...

Sean Illing talks with neuroscientist Gregory Berns, author of The Self Delusion. Berns claims that the idea of a unified, persistent self is a kind of illusion, and that we are better understood as multiple selves at different moments in time, tied together by a story — which is what we call our identity. Sean and Greg also talk about whether the brain is a computer, how perception works, the lim...

For years, right-wing influencers and politicians have pushed the conservative movement to have more controversial, anti-establishment views. Why are some of those figures now upset about where the movement has ended up? In today’s episode, guest host Bryan Walsh speaks with Vox Senior Correspondent Zack Beauchamp about conservatives who decry the extremist direction that the right is moving but r...

Birth rates are dropping and global population growth is slowing. Why? We’re heard all the different speculation: It’s the economy. It’s housing costs. It’s the feminists. But what if the biggest driver is that thing we all carry in our pockets? In today’s episode, guest host Christine Emba speaks with data journalist John Burn-Murdoch about declining fertility rates across vastly different cultur...

AI was supposed to make our lives better. Instead, it’s made many of us scared and angry. Communities are protesting data centers across the country, and polling shows most Americans think AI is moving too fast. In today's episode, guest host Miles Bryan talks with independent journalist Jasmine Sun, who argues that public attitudes toward AI are undergoing a fundamental shift. Jasmine argues that...

Sean talks with writer Liz Bruenig about faith, doubt, and the experience of believing in God in a modern, skeptical age. They discuss religious experience, the limits of science, the appeal of cynicism, Dostoevsky, beauty, mystery, and whether belief is ultimately a choice. They also explore why religion persists and whether living with uncertainty is itself a form of faith. Host: Sean Illing (@s...

Sean talks with journalist David Wallace-Wells about a looming climate event that could make 2027 one of the hottest years ever recorded. They discuss the return of El Niño, why some scientists are calling it a “Godzilla El Niño,” and what it could reveal about the future of global warming. They also explore climate adaptation, political complacency, extreme weather, technological progress, and wh...