Stewart Baker
The Cyberlaw Podcast
The Cyberlaw Podcast is a weekly interview series and discussion offering an opinionated roundup of the latest events in technology, security, privacy, and government. It features in-depth interviews of a wide variety of guests, including academics, politicians, authors, reporters, and other technology and policy newsmakers. Hosted by cybersecurity attorney Stewart Baker, whose views expressed are his own.
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The Digital Fourth Amendment with Orin Kerr 30.05.2025 1:08:36
The Cyberlaw Podcast is back from hiatus – briefly! I've used the hiatus well, skiing the Canadian Ski Marathon, trekking through Patagonia, and having a heart valve repaired (all good now!). So when I saw (and disagreed with ) Orin Kerr's new book, I figured it was time for episode 502 of the Cyberlaw Podcast . Orin and I spend the episode digging into his book , The Digital Fourth Amendment:...
World on the Brink with Dmitri Alperovitch 22.04.2024 49:36
Okay, yes, I promised to take a hiatus after episode 500. Yet here it is a week later, and I'm releasing episode 501. Here's my excuse. I read and liked Dmitri Alperovitch's book, "World on the Brink: How America Can Beat China in the Race for the 21st Century." I told him I wanted to do an interview about it. Then the interview got pushed into late April because that's when the book is actually...
Who's the Bigger Cybersecurity Risk – Microsoft or Open Source? 11.04.2024 1:11:13
There's a whiff of Auld Lang Syne about episode 500 of the Cyberlaw Podcast, since after this it will be going on hiatus for some time and maybe forever. (Okay, there will be an interview with Dmitri Alperovich about his forthcoming book, but the news commentary is done for now.) Perhaps it's appropriate, then, for our two lead stories to revive a theme from the 90s – who's better, Microsoft or Li...
Taking AI Existential Risk Seriously 02.04.2024 1:01:45
This episode is notable not just for cyberlaw commentary, but for its imminent disappearance from these pages and from podcast playlists everywhere. Having promised to take stock of the podcast when it reached episode 500, I've decided that I, the podcast, and the listeners all deserve a break. So I'll be taking one after the next episode. No final decisions have been made, so don't delete your...
The Fourth Antitrust Shoe Drops, on Apple This Time 26.03.2024 46:25
The Biden administration has been aggressively pursuing antitrust cases against Silicon Valley giants like Amazon, Google, and Facebook. This week it was Apple's turn. The Justice Department (joined by several state AGs) filed a gracefully written complaint accusing Apple of improperly monopolizing the market for "performance smartphones." The market definition will be a weakness for the governme...
Social Speech and the Supreme Court 19.03.2024 1:00:16
The Supreme Court is getting a heavy serving of first amendment social media cases. Gus Hurwitz covers two that made the news last week. In the first , Justice Barrett spoke for a unanimous court in spelling out the very factbound rules that determine when a public official may use a platform's tools to suppress critics posting on his or her social media page. Gus and I agree that this might mean...
Preventing Sales of Personal Data to Adversary Nations 14.03.2024 31:52
This bonus episode of the Cyberlaw Podcast focuses on the national security implications of sensitive personal information. Sales of personal data have been largely unregulated as the growth of adtech has turned personal data into a widely traded commodity. This, in turn, has produced a variety of policy proposals – comprehensive privacy regulation, a weird proposal from Sen. Wyden (D-OR) to ensur...
The National Cybersecurity Strategy – How Does it Look After a Year? 13.03.2024 56:30
Kemba Walden and Stewart revisit the National Cybersecurity Strategy a year later. Sultan Meghji examines the ransomware attack on Change Healthcare and its consequences. Brandon Pugh reminds us that even large companies like Google are not immune to having their intellectual property stolen. The group conducts a thorough analysis of a "public option" model for AI development. Brandon discusses th...
Regulating personal data for national security 07.03.2024 53:10
The United States is in the process of rolling out a sweeping regulation for personal data transfers. But the rulemaking is getting limited attention because it targets transfers to our rivals in the new Cold War – China, Russia, and their allies. Adam Hickey, whose old office is drafting the rules, explains the history of the initiative, which stems from endless Committee on Foreign Investment in...
Are AI models learning to generalize? 20.02.2024 49:37
We begin this episode with Paul Rosenzweig describing major progress in teaching AI models to do text-to-speech conversions. Amazon flagged its new model as having "emergent" capabilities in handling what had been serious problems – things like speaking with emotion, or conveying foreign phrases. The key is the size of the training set, but Amazon was able to spot the point at which more data led...
Death, Taxes, and Data Regulation 16.02.2024 1:04:16
On the latest episode of The Cyberlaw Podcast, guest host Brian Fleming, along with panelists Jane Bambauer, Gus Hurwitz, and Nate Jones, discuss the latest U.S. government efforts to protect sensitive personal data, including the FTC's lawsuit against data broker Kochava and the forthcoming executive order restricting certain bulk sensitive data flows to China and other countries of concern. Nate...
Serious threats, unserious responses 06.02.2024 54:19
It was a week of serious cybersecurity incidents paired with unimpressive responses. As Melanie Teplinsky reminds us, the U.S. government has been agitated for months about China's apparent strategic decision to hold U.S. infrastructure hostage to cyberattack in a crisis. Now the government has struck back at Volt Typhoon, the Chinese threat actor pursuing that strategy. It claimed recently to hav...
Going Deep on Deep Fakes—Plus a Bonus Interview with Rob Silvers on the Cyber Safety Review Board. 30.01.2024 1:12:14
It was a big week for deep fakes generated by artificial intelligence. Sultan Meghji, who's got a new AI startup, walked us through three stories that illustrate the ways AI will lead to more confusion about who's really talking to us. First, a fake Biden robocall urged people not to vote in the New Hampshire primary. Second, a bot purporting to offer Dean Phillips's views on the issues was sancti...
High Court, High Stakes for Cybersecurity 23.01.2024 44:56
The Supreme Court heard argument last week in two cases seeking to overturn the Chevron doctrine that defers to administrative agencies in interpreting the statutes that they administer. The cases have nothing to do with cybersecurity, but Adam Hickey thinks they're almost certain to have a big effect on cybersecurity policy. That's because Chevron is going to take a beating, if it survives at all...
Triangulating Apple 09.01.2024 1:22:10
Returning from winter break, this episode of the Cyberlaw Podcast covers a lot of ground. The story I think we'll hear the most about in 2024 is the remarkable exploit used to compromise several generations of Apple iPhone. The question I think we'll be asking for the next year is simple: How could an attack like this be introduced without Apple's knowledge and support? We don't get to this questi...
Do AI Trust and Safety Measures Deserve to Fail? 12.12.2023 1:17:35
It's the last and probably longest Cyberlaw Podcast episode of 2023. To lead off, Megan Stifel takes us through a batch of stories about ways that AI, and especially AI trust and safety, manage to look remarkably fallible. Anthropic released a paper showing that race, gender, and age discrimination by AI models was real but could be dramatically reduced by instructing The Model to "really, really,...
Making the Rubble Bounce in Montana 05.12.2023 1:01:51
In this episode, Paul Stephan lays out the reasoning behind U.S. District Judge Donald W. Molloy's decision enjoining Montana's ban on TikTok. There are some plausible reasons for such an injunction, and the court adopts them. There are also less plausible and redundant grounds for an injunction, and the court adopts those as well. Asked to predict the future course of the litigation, Paul demurs....
Rohrschach AI 28.11.2023 58:08
The OpenAI corporate drama came to a sudden end last week. So sudden, in fact, that the pundits never quite figured out What It All Means. Jim Dempsey and Michael Nelson take us through some of the possibilities. It was all about AI accelerationists v. decelerationists . Or it was all about effective altruism . Or maybe it was Sam Altman's slippery ambition . Or perhaps a new AI breakthrough – a m...
Defenestration at OpenAI 21.11.2023 42:38
Paul Rosenzweig brings us up to date on the debate over renewing section 702, highlighting the introduction of the first credible "renew and reform" measure by the House Intelligence Committee. I'm hopeful that a similarly responsible bill will come soon from Senate Intelligence and that some version of the two will be adopted. Paul is less sanguine. And we all recognize that the wild card will be...
The Brussels Defect: Too Early is Worse Than Too Late. Plus: Mark MacCarthy's Book on "Regulating Digital Industries." 14.11.2023 1:00:44
That, at least, is what I hear from my VC friends in Silicon Valley. And they wouldn't get an argument this week from EU negotiators facing what looks like a third rewrite of the much-too -early AI Act. Mark MacCarthy explains that negotiations over an overhaul of the act demanded by France and Germany led to a walkout by EU parliamentarians . The cause? In their enthusiasm for screwing American A...
Putting the SEC in Infosec 07.11.2023 51:27
In a law-packed Cyberlaw Podcast episode, Chris Conte walks us through the long, detailed, and justifiably controversial SEC enforcement action against SolarWinds and its top infosec officer, Tim Brown. It sounds to me as though the SEC's explanation for its action will (1) force companies to examine and update all of their public security documents, (2) transmit a lot more of their security engin...
Fancy Bear Goes Phishing 31.10.2023 59:30
I take advantage of Scott Shapiro's participation in this episode of the Cyberlaw Podcast to interview him about his book, Fancy Bear Goes Phishing – The Dark History of the Information Age, in Five Extraordinary Hacks . It's a remarkable tutorial on cybersecurity, told through stories that you'll probably think you already know until you see what Scott has found by digging into historical and leg...
Administration Fails Forward on China Chip Exports 24.10.2023 54:36
This episode of the Cyberlaw Podcast begins with the administration's aggressive new rules on chip exports to China. Practically every aspect of the rules announced just eight months ago was sharply tightened, Nate Jones reports. The changes are so severe, I suggest, that they make the original rules look like a failure that had to be overhauled to work. Much the same could be said about the Biden...
Will CISOs Have to Choose Between Getting Rich or Going to Jail? 17.10.2023 44:46
This episode of the Cyberlaw Podcast delves into a False Claims Act lawsuit against Penn State University by a former CIO to one of its research units . The lawsuit alleges that Penn State faked security documents in filings with the Defense Department. Because it's a so-called qui tam case, Tyler Evans explains, the plaintiff could recover a portion of any funds repaid by Penn State. If the emplo...
Bonus Episode 16.10.2023 56:30
The debate over section 702 of FISA is heating up as the end-of-year deadline for reauthorization draws near. The debate can now draw upon a report from the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board . That report was not unanimous. In the interest of helping listeners understand the report and its recommendations, the Cyberlaw Podcast has produced a bonus episode 476, featuring two of the board...
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