Beyond Sunday Worship Leader Podcast

Today's conversation is with historian, author, and activist Dr. Jemar Tisby. Early in 2025 I decided to read more history. Call it curiosity or wanting more context to our current political moment, I started to devour books about the Civil War and eventually more books about the Civil Rights era. One of those books was The Color of Compromise: The Truth About the American Church's Complicity in R...

Today's conversation is returning to our roots at BSW - talking with a worship leader about worship. We've been talking to academics and historians - which we will continue to do - but sometimes it feels good to throw it back and have a good ole worship leader conversation. Lizzie Morgan is a gifted young worship leader who grew up in the church and has been singing her whole life. She auditioned...

As a young worship leader, I used to ask myself the question: "Why is worship such a big deal?" Not in the sense of "God isn't worthy of it…" but I realized there were no worship leaders in the Bible. Lots of singing. And our church gatherings are built around worship. And there's a worship industry. And a constant stream of songs and songwriters. It's a big deal in our modern church culture. I co...

Topics Covered: C. Peter Wagner and the alliance between church growth and charismatic theology The New Apostolic Reformation and why it's important we understand it A definition of Dominion Theology The Seven Mountain Mandate and how popular this ideology is Why not all charismatic/pentecostal movements and theology are dangerous Paula White and the prosperity Gospel The proper context of Mathew...

On July 25, 2025 Isaac Caree released a podcast interview with Norman Gyamfi. Norman is a music industry executive and part owner of Maverick City Music. Suffice it to say, this conversation created a firestorm of controversy and conversation around Gospel Music, CCM, and the racial tension embedded within the music industry. We know these things are going on, but for maybe the first time - a busi...

Topics Covered: Growing up and learning music in the black church Leading multigenerational worship The crazy story of how John was "discovered" Overcoming insecurity and fear The purpose and privilege of corporate worship Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Jon Reddick No Fear by Jon Reddick Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship lead...

Topics Covered: The story of how Word of Life Church lost 1500 people Why America is a rival religion to Christianity Why America is more akin to Babylon than ancient Israel How the charismatic movement went awry Why charismatic worship is so aligned with DT and Christian nationalism Why music, literature, and films are important to Brian How Brian uses music to write sermons Brian's reading habit...

Topics Covered: How Dustin got involved in worship ministry The challenge with young artists and worship leaders who taste success early Why the CCM system is broken Practical ways to reform the Christian music industry How we set up young worship leaders for failure New Sanctus Real music Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Sanctus Real You Are I Am by Sanctus Real Show Sponsor: Pl...

One my favorite books this year was Be The Bridge: Pursuing God's Heart for Racial Reconciliation by Latasha Morrison. A wonderful book that is challenging but also compassionate and full of grace. We've waded into conversations like this recently with Nikki Lerner, Darwin Hobbs, and David Gate. Why are we doing this? Because I truly believe it matters. It matters for our souls, our relationships,...

So we talk a lot about the worship industry on this podcast. Sometimes that conversation can result in a let's just wine and complain about how awful it is. But my guests today are not content with that sort of negativity! It will not be tolerated! But here's the reality: The music industry is built on financial inequality and the worship industry is no different. Those at the top often make a kil...

Today's conversation is a bit of a departure from our usual worship leader/worship industry conversation. I'm talking with Stanley Hauerwas. Here's his bio: Stanley Hauerwas, a theologian and Christian ethicist, is professor emeritus of theological ethics and of law at Duke University. He is the author or editor of more than fifty books, including  Resident Aliens: Life in the Christian Colony  (1...

Topics Covered: We talk about how we can glean insights from various church traditions Why creeds are important Why the church's reputation is suffering in America today How lead pastors and worship leaders can understand each other better What to look for in hiring a worship pastor. So let's get right to my conversation with Glenn Packiam. Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center What's...

Today's topic and subject matter is a tough one. I'm talking with my friend David Gate. David is a writer and poet. He has a new book releasing in 2025 called A Rebellion of Care. But David also has a long history as a worship leader, songwriter, and artist. David wrote an article recently in response to the new Ryan Coogler move Sinners, starring Michael B Jordan. The title of that article was "H...

Today's conversation is with my friend Andy Cherry. Andy is a Worship Leader, former Worship Pastor, Songwriter with Capitol CMG, and touring bandmate with Brandon Lake. Andy is mega talented and a thoughtful voice on the tensions of worship and industry. As a professional songwriter, he's someone whose livelihood is connected to the worship industry. We have a great chat about excellence culture...

Today's conversation is with Dr. Lester Ruth, a research professor of Christian Worship at Duke Divinity School. If you go back in the archives you'll see I interviewed Lester and Swee Hong Lim around the time they released their book A History of Contemporary Praise & Worship. Lester is a worship historian. The subject of this interview is about Christian Nationalism and Worship, a new course tha...

Today's conversation is with Andrew Osenga. Andrew is an artist, songwriter, producer, musician, and author. He used to do A&R with Integrity Music. Used to have a band called The Normals. Was a part of Caedmon's Call. Has a host of solo records and albums. He's a very thoughtful voice in this space of worship and spiritual formation. He leads a project called Anchor Hymns. This was a deep, far ra...

Today's conversation is an interesting juxtaposition to last week's podcast with Jason Houtsma . Jason leads worship in a church of less than 100 people. Today's guest - Jordan Howerton - is the Worship Pastor for one of the largest churches in the country - Christ's Church of the Valley in Phoenix, AZ. If you've listened to the my podcast for a while, you'll know I don't believe bigger is better....

Topics Covered: Playing actual live music in worship The small church community Comparing large church/high production to small church/low production Why you might NOT want to use clicks and tracks Taking risks and being creative in worship again Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor:  Robert E. Webber Institute for Worship Studies  (use promo code BEYOND2025) Show Sponsor:  Planning Center Worship Ar...

Topics Covered: Coffee snobbery John's favorite US (and international) coffee shops How to extend your vocal range Caring for the person, not the just the gifting The importance of staying rooted in a local church The dangers of ego and self centeredness in ministry Sonship Time restraints in worship Structure and flow in worship Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor:  Robert E. Webber Institute for W...

Today's conversation is with Natalie Runion - Natalie is a worship leader, author, speaker, and founder of the online community Raised to Stay . She's written two books - Raised to Stay and The House that Jesus Built, both powerful, insightful reads into the realities of local church ministry. In this conversation we talk about worship ministry tensions, aging out of ministry roles, challenges for...

Topics Covered: Unlearning and deciphering mega church worship models Why it's not our job to move the room Trusting the Holy Spirit as a worship leader How the Church Growth movement has effected the role of worship leaders Why we have elevated young leaders too soon An alternative to big, massive, mega church worship Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Level Up Coaching for Female...

Topics Covered: Why Gospel Music is fringe within the church Why we need diversity and how to encourage it Matters of race and racism in the church Finding your voice and being comfortable in your own skin Why we don't understand the systemic nature of racism and can't always see it Darwin's upcoming new Setlist project Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Darwin Hobbs website (Heart...

Topics Covered: The story behind David's new studio The importance of creating in community The challenges of being a Christian artist in 2025 What is exciting about worship music today Challenges with worship music today Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Just Jesus by David Leonard David Leonard Gruhn Guitars Deliver Me From Nowhere: The Making of Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska by...

Today we welcome Jeff Cochran to the Beyond Sunday Podcast. Jeff is the founder of the Spiritual Abuse Institute and the host of the Church Disrupted podcast.  Jeff is a business owner, church consultant, and has spent many years in local church ministry. His insights into spiritual abuse, church systems, and creating healtheir churches is so insightful. These are TOUGH TOPICS but so necessary to...

Topics Covered: The Religious Exemption and what it means How we can use worship as a subtle form of manipulation The mega church structure and the dangers associated with it Integrity in church financials The upcoming Religious Business documentary Accountability in the church and a robust hope for the future Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center @thereligionbusiness Show Sponsor: My...