We're Not Marketers

Is sounding "enterprise" killing your marketing message? In this episode, conversion copywriter Jessica Malnik joins the crew to expose why the most effective copy isn't about being clever—it's about stealing your customers' exact words. We dive into customer research plays you can use now, why corporate speak is a conversion killer, and how LinkedIn "lunatics" sacrifice credibility for clicks. Tu...

If you're tired of building landing pages that follow "best practices" but still fail to convert qualified leads, this episode will change everything. Whether you're a product marketer afraid of paid ads or a demand gen specialist struggling to get PMM buy-in, this episode will help you create pages that actually respect your buyers' intelligence while driving real business results.  This week, we...

Ever wonder why most bottom-of-funnel content feels generic and fails to convert? In this episode, content strategy advisor Lashay Lewis drops knowledge bombs on the critical gap between product marketing and content marketing. She breaks down why teams are working in silos, how bottom-funnel content fails when the reader knows more than the writer, and why product marketers are the unsung heroes...

Is your win-loss data just expensive fiction written by your sales team? In this episode, Ryan Sorley (ex-Forrester, ex-Gartner) joins the crew to expose the hard truth about buyer research. From ripped jeans costing deals to bootstrapping a business while juggling kids and payroll, Ryan doesn't hold back on his journey from corporate misery to specialized success. Oh, and we uncovered the stupidl...

Is your message testing just throwing random ingredients into a pot and hoping it tastes good? In this no-holds-barred episode, the boys tackle the chaos of message testing and why most PMMs are doing it wrong. From useless A/B tests with tiny sample sizes to executives demanding "just one more tweak," we dive into what actually works. Tune in for laughs, practical frameworks, and why your mom's c...

We have a rule here: Never get the same guest twice. Well, we’ve just broken it now because we’re getting Michele Nieberding for the 2nd time! The Director of Product Marketing at Metarouter, the Martech queen and two-time Top 100 PMM, returns to challenge one of the biggest assumptions about product marketers. We dive into the blurred lines between PMM, marketing, and product teams, why some org...

Product marketers with a sales background often feel like they have a superpower. The opposite is even truer. Kyle Coleman, CMO at Copy.ai , says yes—and he’s got the career journey to back it up. From SDR to marketing exec, Kyle breaks down why sales and marketing are inseparable, how storytelling (not the best product) wins markets, and why staying close to revenue is the key to career growth. P...

We’re kicking off season 4 with Chanel Chambers, VP of Marketing at Lakeside Software. As a product marketing leader and past music teacher, she’s joining us to break down the role of product marketing, why it's central to a business’s success, and how PMMs can increase their influence. From jazz improvisation to AI-driven business strategies, Chanel shares fresh insights on how product marketers...

In this special recap, we dive into what it really means to be a product marketer in the ever-evolving B2B SaaS space—from defining the role to gaining the trust of executives and product teams. Hear first-hand advice on establishing boundaries, shaping product roadmaps, and showcasing your unique value. Tune in to discover how you can go from feeling misunderstood to being the unignorable voice i...

Product marketing and content marketing—are they allies, or just frenemies in disguise? In this episode, Devin Reed (ex-Gong, ex-Clari, and host of Read Between the Lines) joins the crew to dish out his hot takes on the tension between PMMs and content marketers, why most messaging decks collect dust, and the real secret to making content that resonates.   If you’ve ever questioned whether product...

Ever wondered how a band of misfits turned shared frustrations into a thriving podcast? In this episode, we’re sharing our origin story, revealing how they met, bonded over common pain points in the product marketing world, and turned candid conversations into a platform that challenges industry norms.  Packed with spicy takes, behind-the-scenes laughs, and actionable advice, this episode is a tes...

Are you ready to take the leap into fractional work? In this episode of We're Not Marketers, Gab, Zach, and Eric dive into the realities, challenges, and triumphs of betting on yourself as a fractional Product Marketing Manager (PMM). They explore: The mindset shifts required to succeed in a fractional career. Lessons learned from building your niche and refining your offer. How confidence, commun...

The more knowledge you have on product marketing, the better you can be an expert and have more impact on your job.  Today, we’re having Peter Kortvel, a senior product marketer at Scandit and the creator of the product marketing newsletter (with 1700+ subscribers). Peter has worked as a video consultant, in startups, cofounded an IoT startup and today shows us what great product marketing should...

Making your mark as a founding PMM is very difficult, especially when the role itself has an identity crisis. That’s why we’ve asked three product marketers from our audience to join us to talk about their experience, and how to prove themselves valuable (especially when everything wants you to fail) This week, we’re inviting Shoshana Kordova, Aphrodite Brinsmead, and Elliott Rayner to discuss the...

Episode Description: In this episode of We're Not Marketers , we’re diving deep with Rob Kaminski , one-half of the dynamic duo behind Fletch PMM . Rob’s journey is a masterclass in transitioning from a generalist’s toolkit to a hyper-focused niche, unlocking unparalleled expertise along the way. Together, we explore the unconventional path that led Rob and his co-founder Anthony Pierri to redefin...

Ever felt like a misfit in product marketing? You’re not alone. In this episode of We’re Not Marketers , hosts Gab, Zach, and Eric dive deep into a hot topic for PMMs: discovering and honing your unique superpower to stand out in your role. Whether you're a product marketing veteran or new to the field, this conversation is packed with timeless advice, relatable stories, and strategies to help you...

In this next episode of We're Not Marketers , hosts Zach, Gab, and Eric are joined by Rahim Kaba, Director and Research Analyst at Gartner, to dive into the evolving role of PMM in B2B SaaS. With over 20 years of experience in the field, Rahim shares data with perspective on the function and challenges that come with it today. Key highlights include: - The Core Identity of Product Marketers: Rahim...

The role of the PMM is evolving and requires us to always adapt and be knowledgeable on new tech and initiatives. It can make a difference between a product marketer who is valuable and stack influence vs. someone who’s on the layoff list. Someone who keeps pushing the limit of practical product marketing and leveraging projects short-cuts to ship more is Jess Petrella, Senior Product Marketing Ma...

The worst thing about being a PMM is not having to launch a new product within 2 weeks, or drowning in sales decks. It’s all sharing the same trauma that people don’t understand product marketing.  We’ve seen a lot of movement on LinkedIn about PMMs sharing horror stories. Michele Nieberding even did a talk about it at PMA Boston. And we were lucky enough to have her sharing them on the pod, just...

For PMMs, it can be difficult to have a good relationship with sales, especially in new roles.  Win-loss analysis and interviews can be a good win when you see that close-lost column piling up on the CRM pipeline. But how can you take another responsibility on your to-do when you’re already swamped? Matthew Reeves, CEO and co-founder of GoldPan, runs a win-loss analysis agency. In this episode, he...

Get ready for some real talk about positioning! In this episode, we sit down with the queen of positioning herself, April Dunford. If your startup’s positioning feels a little “mushy” or your product is getting compared to everyone under the sun, this episode is for you. April shares her no-nonsense approach to tightening up your message and teaching your CEO why positioning isn’t just some abstra...

Dealing with the chaos of being a PMM while trying to balance the rest of your life? You’re not alone. In this candid episode of We're Not Marketers , Zach, Eric, and Gab dive into the realities of managing life as a Product Marketing Manager, whether you're in-house or fractional. From overwhelming work expectations to the struggle of balancing personal life, the team discusses how to protect you...

In this episode of We're Not Marketers , we sit down with the one and only Jeff Chase, Director of Brand and Product Marketing at Vitally.io , who drops a major hot take— product marketers aren’t marketers (wait, what?!). But Jeff doesn’t stop there. He believes PMMs are the future leaders of marketing, and he’s got the experience and insights to back it up. Tune in as we dive into the evolving ro...

In this episode, Jarod Greene, CMO of Vivint, shares his journey from teaching middle school math to Gartner analyst to CMO today and offers actionable advice for PMMs struggling to gain recognition. Learn how to use research, co-create with sales, and communicate your value to drive impactful product marketing strategies in your workplace. When you let Jarod cook (#lethimcook) and you’re gonna ge...

There are many different flavors of product marketers, whether you’re in-house or fractional like our host, you need to be aware of your special sauce 😉 The product marketing function is becoming more and more nuanced, so you need to know what you are good at and why these special skills matter with your expertise and work environment. Megan Pratt went from senior PMM to director of PMM and was o...