The Church Renewal Podcast

Ever wondered why the same church conflict keeps showing up with different names? We sit down with intentional interim pastor and certified Christian conciliator Dan Werthman to unpack how family systems theory, shame awareness, and differentiation can turn anxious reactivity into steady, compassionate leadership. Dan’s path—from Air Force JAG and civil litigation to the pulpit and peacemaking—giv...

Matt and Jeremy explore triangulation as one of the most common relational patterns in families and churches, often forming unconsciously as a way of managing anxiety or tension. • Triangles are the most stable relational form, which is why they're so common and hard to escape • Unhealthy triangulation occurs when two people talk about a third party not present with the goal of enlisting help...

We explore how anxiety moves through church systems and why leaders must act as circuit breakers who stay connected, calm, and clear under pressure. We ground the practice in biblical images of shepherding, trust, and identity secured in Christ rather than outcomes. • herding and the identified patient masking deeper issues • positive and negative feedback loops shaping reactions • anxiety flowing...

Leaders carry family baggage—patterns of conflict avoidance, expectations and wounds—into their ministry. Family of origin dynamics shape leadership instincts, blind spots and identity formation in ways that affect entire church systems. • Reactivity vs. responsiveness: How our limbic system triggers fight/flight/freeze responses learned in childhood • Understanding the transformation process betw...

Jack Shitama joins us for part two of our conversation on family systems theory, exploring how Christian leaders can move from understanding differentiation to living it out in practice. • Tracing Jack's journey from discovering Friedman's concept of "non-anxious presence" to making these ideas accessible through his books • How the gospel uniquely empowers Christians to differ...

Jack Shitama brings clarity and wisdom to family systems theory in this transformative conversation about leadership, anxiety, and healthy church relationships. Drawing from decades of experience as a pastor, author, and coach, Jack breaks down complex concepts into accessible insights that can revolutionize how ministry leaders approach challenging situations. The conversation begins with Jack sh...

Matt and Jeremy explore the concept of differentiation from outcome, revealing how pastors can remain faithful without tying their identity to ministry results. This liberating approach helps church leaders break free from unhealthy patterns of control or disappointment. • Differentiation typically applies to relationships with people, but many leaders need to differentiate from outcomes as well •...

Systems naturally strive for equilibrium, but when that equilibrium is dysfunctional, it fiercely resists healthy change. We explore the foundational concepts of family systems theory and how they apply to church leadership. • Differentiation comes from biology – distinct cells that touch and connect while maintaining their unique identity • Common errors include never approaching the line (emotio...

Church systems automatically resist change even when transformation is desperately needed, creating a tension between healthy spirit-led renewal and our natural tendency to maintain familiar patterns. Recognizing how this dynamic plays out in congregations requires understanding both family systems theory and biblical principles for healthy church life. • Churches function as systems that naturall...

Churches, like families, instinctively resist change even when it's healthy because systems naturally seek stability—even dysfunctional stability. • Family systems theory provides powerful insights for understanding church dynamics • Western individualism misses our design for relationship and community • Eastern collectivism correctly values community but can suppress healthy differentiation...

Dysfunction in churches stems from humanity's fallen nature and our propensity to break relationships with God, ourselves, and others. The gospel provides the only pathway to healing these fractured relationships and restoring healthy church systems. • Most congregations function like extended families, making family systems theory applicable to church settings • Family systems theory observe...

Only 24 hours left until season 4 of the church renewal podcast goes live. If you are  ready to discover keys that will unlock patterns of communications disfunction relationship challenges mistrust apathy and reactivity join us tomorrow as we jump with both feet into the deep end. We are going to unpack family systems theory, and connect it to the theology and practical ministry application for y...

In edition to unpacking family systems theory, we are going to talk with several guests who have extensive personal and professional knowledge and experience working with leaders and churches to identify and correct church trauma. Heres a sneak peek at a few of our guests. Support the show Please connect with us at our Website , Facebook , LinkedIn , and YouTube . If you'd like to support the...

Is a discussion on family systems theory more than just a psychological exercise? Absolutely! This season we're gonna unpack concepts of differentiation triangulation, scapegoating, and more from both the sociological and the theological perspective to help you be able to identify and move towards solutions in your personal leadership and in your church body. Support the show Please connect w...

The Church Renewal Podcast is about to drop Season 4 on September 4th.  This season Jeremy and Matt will unpack the many ways that Family Systems Theory is beneficial to diagnosing church and church leadership dysfunction and congregational pain.  Save the date and join us for what we are sure will be an eye opening and tremendously useful season.  Support the show Please connect with us at our We...

Pastor Chris Bowen opens up about his journey stepping into a church marked by what he calls "congregational trauma" and how pastoral coaching through Flourish became a lifeline for both him and his congregation. When mentors advised him to find support as he began at New Covenant Fellowship, Chris sought someone who understood his denominational context and could provide both personal c...

Matt and Jeremy continue their conversation with Dr. Dave Miles Founder of Vital Church Ministry and explore what Dave calls "the unholy trinity" plaguing many churches: idolatry, conflict, and power. With the warmth of pastors rather than clinical consultants, they unpack how these issues repeatedly surface in struggling congregations. Dave shares a story that perfectly captures church...

What if your church's struggles aren't really about what they appear to be? In this thought-provoking second installment with Dr. Dave Miles Founder of Vital Church , we dive deep into the hidden emotional dynamics shaping church health and decline. The conversation reveals a startling truth: beneath the surface of most church conflicts lie unaddressed emotional processes and unexamined...

Dr. Dave Miles has spent 31 years walking into church buildings where hope is dwindling, relationships are fractured, and the future seems uncertain. As founder of Vital Church Ministry , he's dedicated his career to being a spiritual first responder for congregations in crisis. Growing up in Detroit's fundamentalist church scene, Dave found his faith truly blossomed through small group...

A church in crisis. A pastor who suddenly departed. Deep divisions over COVID and politics. This intimate conversation with Bill Scionella, ruling elder at Columbia Presbyterian Church, reveals the powerful journey of a congregation that found its way back from the brink through humility, assessment, and intentional leadership development.    When Columbia Presbyterian's pastor took a sabbati...

Dr. Tom Harris , President of Interim Pastor Ministries returns for the final installment of our three-part conversation, delivering powerful insights into the universal challenges facing churches in transition. Drawing from decades of experience, Tom identifies two critical weaknesses that consistently plague congregations: inadequate leadership development and the abandonment of evangelism. The...

What happens in the critical space between pastors can determine a church's future trajectory for years to come. Dr. Tom Harris President of  Interim Pastor Ministries joins us to unpack why rushing to fill a pastoral vacancy might be the biggest mistake churches make during transitions. Harris offers a compelling perspective on church identity, explaining how congregations often operate from...

Dr. Tom Harris , President of Interim Pastor Ministries , brings three decades of hard-won wisdom to this conversation about the critical role of transitional leadership in churches experiencing pastoral change. With refreshing candor, Tom shares how he stumbled into interim ministry when interviewing for a permanent position at a struggling congregation. Recognizing their deeper needs for healing...

Navigating a pastoral transition represents one of the most pivotal moments in a church's life. When Grace Point Church in Pennsylvania faced this challenge, they discovered that the path forward wasn't something they needed to forge alone. Steve, former elder board chairman and search committee leader, shares the vulnerable journey of realizing that despite having experienced leaders wi...

Dr. Ken Quick of Blessing Point Ministry continues his conversation with Matt and Jeremy about how Jesus speaks to His church as a corporate body and why many congregations struggle to hear Him. The powerful story of a ninth-grade girl in Punxsutawney, Pennsylvania whose whispered insight resonated with an entire congregation demonstrates how God often speaks through the most humble members. Part...